Western L71 Questions

[capt14k]

I think I fell for shiny and cheap. Never seen a plastic handle WWII Western Knife especially not a L71 but blade looks like it is WWII period. From what I can gather handle is Delrin. My guess is this is not WWII but done afterwards. Any help is appreciated.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[sactroop]

There are examples of WW2 Westerns that were reworked after the War. Western is known to have done at least some of this work for veterans that sent them their knives for repair.

I don't recall seeing one with this type of handle. However if it wasn't done by Western, it appears someone did a very good job with the tang and pommel.

Defiantly a very nice knife, and you said it was cheap, sounds like a good deal.

[zzyzzogeton]

It is definitely a WW2 L71 that has been reworked. The red spacers have faded to the same orange-ish color as seen on many G46-X and L71 WW2 era knives. As sactroop stated, Western reworked knives for veterans who sent them in, but most of that work had ceased by the time Delrin became commercially available in 1961.

 

Western used bakelite and other plastics before, during and after WW2. Most of the WW2 plastic used by Western DURING the war was the brown swirl plastic seen on G46-5, G46-6 and L77 knives, as guards, pommels or both. There are also examples of the brown swirl plastic on some of the 1941 pre-War knives. Bakelite was used on the Bx54 Bushman knives supploed for the AAC Survival kits.

 

Western also used a shiny black "bakelite-like" plastic that held up very well as early as the 1936 era knives.

[capt14k]

Thank you for the info. It does seem well done and was under $100. Not super cheap but cheap compared to most Western L71.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[capt14k]

Also I got my first Bakelite Western also under $100. Original sheath I believe but broken button. The other one came in a Boy Scout Sheath in nice condition.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SKIPH]

The L71 is a really beautiful knife. Thanks for showing. SKIP

[sactroop]

I don't recall seeing Delrin with such a smooth high gloss finish before, I could be wrong. Zzz's observations regarding bakelite make sense, but without knowing more about where and when this took place it could be anyone of a number of "plastics" used to make the grip. Still a good knife with a U.S. military background. It is a shame that knives don't talk, but in the meantime I have a few pieces that I have to call "curiosities" unless or until something new comes to light.

[zzyzzogeton]

Just got to remembering.... there's an ebay seller based in Colorado who keeps pumping out Western's sporting shiny acrylic handles, very shiny, very vibrant and well assembled. Claims they are all "original" and gets big bucks for them.... but.... they have had ricasso stamps from several eras and no knife ever advertised during the eras portrayed by the stamps matches what he is peddling. And Western NEVER advertised that they used acrylic for anything.

[zzyzzogeton]

Also I got my first Bakelite Western also under $100. Original sheath I believe but broken button. The other one came in a Boy Scout Sheath in nice condition.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

This is one that falls into sactroop's "Curiosities" category. At fist glance, one would say "WW2" due to the ricasso stamp, steel full guard and brown swirl bakelite/plastic pommel, which is similar to what was used on 1945 era G46-5s, G46-6s and L77s for guards, pommels, or both.

 

The issue with that ID is that this particular blade shape was NOT, to my knowledge and research, one made during the war for any government purchase, whether, contract purchase, unit purchase or PX sales. The blade shape would be a 44 or 36 pattern, depending on length.

 

I usually categorize knives with these 3 characteristics as being early post-war manufacture, i.e., September 1945 to November 1945, at the latest. Early "KNOWN to be 1946 or later" post-war knives have the post-war stamp that has "PAT. MADE IN USA" as the third line of the stamp. Western (and other manufacturers) would have been using up parts that had already been stamped/molded/formed/sewn that were caught up in the manufacturing process when the war abruptly ended and the government cancelled ALL contracts immediately.

 

The vast majority of this curiosity category of knives run along the lines of the WW2 made models - G46-5 and G46-6, aka Baby Shark and Shark knives, as this was what was most likely Western's primary contract lines. In addition to the S/BS models, I have seen and/or bought 48, 66, 44 and 36 pattern knives.

 

One remote possibility is that this family of knives were made for the civilian market sometime in 1945 after Western started using the brown swirl material but before the war actually ended. The problem with that theory is that I have not encountered any advertisement from the 1942 to 1945 period that was a Western advertisement for the civilian sale of knives. I have seen a couple of ads where Western touted what they were making for the military, but that is all. If anyone has wartime ads for the civilian sale of knives by Western I'd love to see them.

[capt14k]

Interesting about the blade shape. Didn't really notice it. I did get my second Western Bakelite pommel and crossguard which arrived today and was also cheap. I believe it is a baby shark. Sheath has name but I don't believe sheath is Western.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[capt14k]

Just got to remembering....  there's an ebay seller based in Colorado who keeps pumping out Western's sporting shiny acrylic handles, very shiny, very vibrant and well assembled.  Claims they are all "original" and gets big bucks for them.... but.... they have had ricasso stamps from several eras and no knife ever advertised during the eras portrayed by the stamps matches what he is peddling.  And Western NEVER advertised that they used acrylic for anything.

This guy was in NJ turmed out only 15 min from me. He said he got it in Georgia during his travels. Boy Scout Sheath it is in. Guessing that has to be worth $30 on its own. It is a nice looking knife.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[sactroop]

It is a "Baby Shark", or an L46-5. Westerns version of the Marbles Ideal pattern knife. The sheath looks period correct to me, not all the Western sheaths were double stitched. Western sub-contracted all their sheaths before they built their own leather shop in the 1950's. They supplied these knives as a sub-contractor for other companies supplying survival kits to the USAAF and Navy.

Also the airport in Boulder Colorado came under the control of the USAAF during WW2 and was turned into a training base for new Navy pilots receiving their basic flight instruction. This may be purely coincidence, but I don't think so much.

Might at least help explain the presence of so many Western knives in the possession of Navy pilots during WW2.

[capt14k]

Thank you. I thought they were all double stitched. Either the rollover double stitched one side or both

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

[sactroop]

Here are some pictures I saved years ago for reference that Frank Trzaska originally posted.

Wish I had better pictures of the original box, but you can make out the contract and order numbers as well as the reference to the Marble pattern.

 

[sactroop]

And lastly.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Most of the sheaths from Western during WW2 were plain. Some were single stitched, while others were double stitched. One "tell" on Western WW2 and post-WW2 sheaths is the "square wave" decoration on the snap. This is not a hard and fast rule, as many sheaths have plain snaps. The difference could be when the sheaths were made during the war.

 

I have no proof but I have always considered that any sheaths stamped with "WESTERN" at the throat and/or double stitching were made "locally", with the plain, single stitched versions being contracted out.

 

The only sheaths that I remember off the top of my head this late at night as being decorated were some of the W31 Paramarine parachute knives. And not all of those knives came with decorated sheaths. As the W31 was allegedly available for private purchase at the paramarine training base (probably Camp Kearny or Camp Gillespie, both near San Diego) PX, in addition to the ones made on contract, that might account for the different styles of sheaths. Again, just speculation based on a few tidbits of printed information.

 

Since there were about 3,000 Marines in the 3 Paramarine Battalions and only about 500 W31s made (by most accounts), I've always wondered what the other 2,500 Marines chose as their knives.

 

Technically, the Shark and Baby Shark were the G46-6 and G46-5 during the war up to 1953ish. Western advertised them with the wartime model numbers until they started adding model numbers to the pile side ricasso stamp. Only then dd they change the model numbers to L46-6 and L46-5.

 

The G46-8, a wartime production model only, never got assigned a nickname. When Western reintroduced the 8" blade as the L46-8 in the mid-1950s, it was advertised as "The Big Eight".

[capt14k]

I thought what differentiated the shark from the G46-6 was the bird's beak vs round pommel. Here are my smaller Westerns. Have the G46-8 and L-77 (single edge) as well as Life raft. Still need a few.

 

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

[sactroop]

Even Western's own publications weren't exactly consistent on this matter.

 

[capt14k]

So there is a Shark G-46, G-46-8, and G-46-6? At least that is how it seems to me.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

[sactroop]

The "G" designation in Western's stock number coding remains a mystery to me. From at least as early as 1931 thru the War the blade pattern 46 is always preceded with the letter G. It's the only fixed blade knife with a stacked leather handle they offer with this designator instead of the letter "L" which was meant to indicate a leather handle. To further confuse things, at least from my observations, there is only one other fixed blade knife in their catalogs during these pre-war years with a "G" designation. One version of the 263 blade pattern with a "composite pearl" handle.

I've yet to run across a stock number key that describes what the letter "G" was supposed to indicate from Western. Still from Western's existing documents the pattern 46 would most correctly be referred to as a G46 prior to the early 50's when they started stamping the stock number to the reverse side of the blade on most of their fixed blade knives. When they did that the old G46 transformed into the L46 and later also the W46.

[zzyzzogeton]

Sactroop,

 

I have been looking for an explanation about why the 46-4, 46-5 and 46-6 had a "G" handle material indicator from it's introduction in 1931 up to 1954ish when the designator for it changed to "L" for over 40 years. Not a clue found anywhere.

 

The best I have been able to determine is that "G" stood for "GAUDY", since the original 1931s G46s had black, gray and nickle-silver washers.

 

On the G46-6 vs G46-5 vs L71, re: Shark vs Baby Shark vs Seabees --- The Western WW2 Knives page designates the G46 as the Shark, with no reference to -6 or -5, and no reference ever to "Baby Shark", as if Western considered both of them as "Sharks" and Western didn't list the L71 as a "Seabees", and only a 5" blade, no 6" blade.

 

BUT..... There are 6" and 5" blades with flat pommels, some with fullers, some flat grind.

 

So, do we consider all flat pommels as "Seabees"? Or do we only call the 5" blades Seabees? Or do we separate the flat pommels into being Sharks/Baby Sharks if they have either style pommel if the blade has a fuller? But then where do the flat pommel 6" blades with flat grinds fall???

 

In my own system, if the blade has a fuller, I call it a Shark/Baby Shark based on blade length. If it has a flat grind blade, it is a Seabees, regardless of blade length.

 

I based that decision on the fact that the 1931/1936/1941 G46s (-4, -5, -6) had fullers.

 

"N" and "H" are also still a mystery. "X" seems to have had several meanings. Sometimes "X" indicates black plastic underlayment under composition pearl. Sometimes, like with the BX43, it seems to indicate black and brown swirled bakelite. But then the the Bx54 Bushman just had plain black bakelite. And the 1941 Wx66 has a cocobolo (W) handle but then what does the "x" mean?????

 

AAAGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! Genetics is not the only reason I'm 3/4 bald.