WW1 era Navy officer sword from Brooklyn - or is it?

[Bob Hudson]

 

It's often been said on this forum that it's hard to tell a modern Naval officer sword from one made decades ago. One of the key signs is if the eagle on the sword's pommel is facing its left we know it was made before 1941.

 

I picked up an old-looking one this week and of all things - the telltale pommel is missing!

 

It looked a bit different than the Navy swords I usually encounter, even those made in the late 30's (the last ones made before WWII started and the Navy stopped using them at all).

 

The blade width at the ricasso was .75 inches (about 19mm).

 

Back in the era when US swords were still weapons and not just ceremonial, blade widths were larger than today.

 

https://arms2armor.com/Swords/1852navy.htm has some great details on the Navy Model 1852 sword, including widths:

 

"from about 1852 to about 1872": 1-1/16" wide

 

"after about 1872, they became more ceremonial" 3/4" wide at the ricasso

 

So my blade is post 1872, but pre-what? Today's blades are 5/8 inches, but when was the change made?

 

This is from http://landandseacollection.com/id551.html

 

 

I was able - with some effort - to uncover enough of the ricasso mark to see that it was made by I BERNSTEIN, located near the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Most of the references I find to their swords are about presentation swords made from about 1900 to the early 1920's. They were a jeweler and may have imported the blades (or the whole sword for that matter).

 

 

[Bob Hudson]

I have seen enough references to these during the start of the 20th century to think it's safe to label this circa 1900-1925.

 

Besides the missing pommell there's another bummer: the scabbard cracked in three with one one piece missing. There's also some rust on the blade and verdigris in the brass.

 

The rayskin and the brass look great. The patina is really kind of a red brass, copper-like.

 

There's lots of character in the characters:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Hudson]

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[Bob Hudson]

This is from 1915 and in it Bernstein says, "I make a specialty of Presentation Swords" - this sword has no name engraved on it.

 

[Bob Hudson]

On ebay I found recent sales of WWI era Navy swords and two of them had the exact same blade etchings as this one: the J.H. Hirsch Co and John J. Costinett Co. Like Bernstein they were jewelers not blademakers, apparently buying blades from the same source.

[sundance]

I love the sword posts. That's a nice one. I'd love to find a wide blade one but they seem to be few and far between (meaning expensive). We stayed at an Annapolis B&B once for a few days and there was a beautiful wide blade one on the wall.

[Bob Hudson]

I removed the pommel screw and grip to see if there were any blade-maker marks on the tang. I found two marks: on one side BL which may have been an inspectors initials, and on the other side the letter B, perhaps for "Bernstein?"

I took some photos showing the rayskin attached to the wood grip.

 

 

[Horseclover]

Here are some thoughts regarding sources and construction.

 

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?111916-US-Naval-Officers-Swords-1872-to-1942

 

Cheers

GC

[MastersMate]

Taken from the photos in the USN Uniform Regulations, the officers sword. The sword was suspended in 1942 during WW2 and re-instated in the mid 1950s. The mark added to the photos shows the thicker pre WW2 sword and the 1955 sword is visually narrower..

 

 

[Bob Hudson]

Here are some thoughts regarding sources and construction.

 

http://www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?111916-US-Naval-Officers-Swords-1872-to-1942

 

Cheers

GC

 

Thanks for that - lots of discussion on the typically ignored US Navy officer swords

[Dave]

Taken from the photos in the USN Uniform Regulations, the officers sword. The sword was suspended in 1942 during WW2 and re-instated in the mid 1950s. The mark added to the photos shows the thicker pre WW2 sword and the 1955 sword is visually narrower..

 

 

 

 

I was curious so I pulled out my sword that was purchased by a Navy doctor in 1917 and compared it to my wife's sword that she was awarded in 1998. The blades are the same width.

[Bob Hudson]

 

 

I was curious so I pulled out my sword that was purchased by a Navy doctor in 1917 and compared it to my wife's sword that she was awarded in 1998. The blades are the same width.

 

 

Thanks - I wondered about that. It appears the Navy uniform regulations back to 1864 only cover the length, not the width. Does anyone have a Navy sword with a 5/8th inch width at the ricassos?

 

CURRENT REGS

The sword shall have a cut and thrust blade, from 22 inches to 36 inches long, half basket hilt, and fit in a scabbard of plain black grain leather or synthetic material presenting the leather appearance.

1941

The sword shall have a cut and thrust blade, from 22 to 32 inches long, half-basket hilt, and shall fit a black leather scabbard.

1917

A cut-and-thrust blade, not less than 26 nor more than 32 inches long, with a half basket hilt and white grip: scabbard of black leather, with mountings of yellow gilt. Both sword and scabbard shall be as per pattern.

1864

Swords shall be a cut-and-thrust blade, not less than twenty-six nor more than twenty-nine inches long; half-basket hilt; grip white. Scabbards of black leather mounting of yellow gilt.

[Bob Hudson]

The width has not been specified since the 1841 uniform regs! Again, from https://arms2armor.com/Swords/1852navy.htm

 

 

1841

 

The swords are to be cut and thrust; the blade to be not less than twenty-six inches long, and not less than one inch wide at the hilt.

[MastersMate]

In the FWIW department, dug my 1980 sword out of hiding.. Carries the Wolf Brown mark and made in Spain. The blade length is 32" and measures 5/8" width at the point indicated on other photos..

[Bob Hudson]

measures 5/8" width at the point indicated on other photos..

 

Thanks. I looked at sites of current Navy sword makers for width info and the most they tell us is, "meets (or exceeds) Navy specifications," which - based on the uniform regs quoted above - is not much.

 

I wonder if there is some sort of detailed specs that are provided to sword makers?

[Dave]

In the FWIW department, dug my 1980 sword out of hiding.. Carries the Wolf Brown mark and made in Spain. The blade length is 32" and measures 5/8" width at the point indicated on other photos..

 

5/8? Where did you measure it? Both mine and my wife's were 3/4, but that was right at the bottom of the blade artwork, where it meets the maker mark area (forgive the lack of proper terms! LOL) Anyway, let me know where you measured yours and I'll check mine as well.

 

I've actually never studied this...I know the old, old swords are wider, but as far as 20th century swords, I never thought there'd be a difference, thus the curiosity.

[MastersMate]

Dave,

Measured at the same spot you mentioned. The pommel has the standard USN eagle design as far as facing to its right. The visible difference it USCG in place of USN on the bottom side of the basket . Blade marked Stainless Steel and has a slender "look" to it..

[Bob Hudson]

 

5/8? Where did you measure it? Both mine and my wife's were 3/4, but that was right at the bottom of the blade artwork, where it meets the maker mark area (forgive the lack of proper terms! LOL) Anyway, let me know where you measured yours and I'll check mine as well.

 

I've actually never studied this...I know the old, old swords are wider, but as far as 20th century swords, I never thought there'd be a difference, thus the curiosity.

 

I measured right where the ricasso ends:

 

[MastersMate]

Best measurement I can get with my "fat fingers" photo skills ...

 

 

[Horseclover]

The 1841 was the eaglehead pommel sword (contracted to Ames for design). The Peter Tuite book discusses and clarifies the swords through the 19th century.

 

https://gunandswordcollector.com/product/us-naval-officers-swords-and-dirks/

 

Cheers

GC

[MastersMate]

OK, the plot thickens.. I found some specs. from the mid 1990s for the Marine Corps non commissioned officers sword.. Looks similar in design to the USN officer sword

 

From a preliminary observation it appears that the thickness inn the area in discussion is .875 " or 7/8 "

[Bob Hudson]

I found online a very detailed set of specifications and standards for the USMC officer sword and accessories and despite long detailed manufacturer's instructions on fabrics, metals and assembly details, etc,. it did not mention blade size. I would assume the Navy has a set like that for their swords but I haven't found an links to one.

 

If the Navy did in fact issue blade width instructions it seemsthey'd be in a similar specifications and standards document.

[MastersMate]

From the 1994 spec sheet for the USMC non comm sword..

 

 

[MastersMate]

Did a pretty good search through this site but no luck finding the officers sword spec sheet..

 

http://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsSearch.aspx

[Horseclover]

The similarities in the swords start with the French influences and our adoption of a foot officer and staff&field officer sword models of 1850. The staff&field officer model having a wider/bowl/half basket. The 1852 naval sword, superseding the short lived 1841 eagle pommel (which had a pipe back quill point blade) was in all intent and purposes the same as the foot officer saber aside from the addition of USN cast as part of the guard and blade etching. The USMC nco in turn was another clone of the 1850 foot officer sword (mimicking the French 1845) except with a leather grip, scabbard suspension and later, blade etching (Richard can better clarify the timelines).

 

The 20th century USMC maintains a wider curved blade, where the naval swords got narrower yet and in the end quite straight. Similar but a different evolution.

 

Cheers

GC