Multi Campaign WW2 Ike Jacket

[Nkumburis]

All,

 

I hope your weekend went well. I recently picked up this jacket with an impressive service. I believe the jacket is original with a bullion CIB, Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star, three wound purple heart, Good Conduct, Mexico Service, WWI Victory medal, Army of Occupation, American Defense Service, ETO service ribbon, WWI French war cross, fourragère of the médaille militaire. Unfortunately the uniform is not named but hopefully there is a way to ID the Vet through the ribbon rack. I look forward to your comments!

 

Nick K

 

[Nkumburis]

last

[KurtA]

Any provenance on this jacket? How did you obtain it? (e.g., ., ebay, militaria dealer, estate sale, etc)

At first glance, I'm highly skeptical of it (just my "collector instincts"), but I've learned to "never say never."

[Captainofthe7th]

I thought the same as Kurt....if it is legit is a really cool one.

 

Rob

[Nkumburis]

I bought the item through McLaren Auction Services in Oregon but besides that I do not have additional info on the previous owner. I was weary at first but all of the items appear to be period i.e. ribbon rack, patches, etc. Seeing is that the service member has a long history Im hoping to ID him. - Nick K

[Nkumburis]

I contacted the auction house and they stated the jacket came from a local collector. The owner said he will get more information from the collector and let me know where he obtained it. - Nick K

[Nkumburis]

Any provenance on this jacket? How did you obtain it? (e.g., ., ebay, militaria dealer, estate sale, etc)

At first glance, I'm highly skeptical of it (just my "collector instincts"), but I've learned to "never say never."

 

Thanks for your comment, I appreciate your response. What makes you highly skeptical of the jacket? - Nick K

[KurtA]

Mainly all those valor awards combined with the manner in which they were applied to the uniform. Other minor points on the ribbons and insignia, which could possibly be explained-away, but combined with everything about this jacket, it just screams "put together" to me. It doesn't matter that all the insignia is original. I could buy everything on this jacket for less than $50.

I could be wrong, and I hope it turns out ok for you. But, not a jacket I would buy without a whole lot of provenance. Coming from a "collector" is not at all good provenance.

[Nkumburis]

Thanks for the tips, when it arrives I think we'll get a better idea of what were working with. - Nick K

[manayunkman]

A very cool jacket.

 

It looks like the ribbons are sewn to a backing and then machine sewn to jacket.

 

I wonder how old he was in WW2 and is that a silver star on his European theater ribbon?

 

I think there is a chance.

 

It would be awesome if there is a name in it.

 

I’m sure it wouldn’t be to hard too find who was an NCO, in the 9th, WW1 and 2 and has a DSC.

[Nkumburis]

Heres a photo of the inside. - Nick K

[rmoore456]

I would wonder about only 5 service stripes, WWI service and the American Defense ribbon. Unless he got out and re-upped. The clutch back PUC concerns me too.

 

Ray

[Wake1941]

Wasnt there a thread on a dealer who made these custom ribbon bars and added them to uniforms ? I myself am not a fan of the ribbon bars. Im leaning towards put together, the material used for the ribbon bars is darker, the Bullion CIB looks more 50s period to me.

[63 RECON]

Wake is right, there was another thread on those style of ribbon bars

 

you'd have to check this list https://9thinfantrydivision.net/distinguished-service-cross/

 

against this one https://9thinfantrydivision.net/silver-star-recipients/

 

I did a cautionary search for fun and found Taylor, Emmett M. HQ, 9th Infantry Division has both a DSC and SS awarded in ww2

[huntssurplus]

Also wouldn't he have clasps on his Army Good Conduct Medal ribbon for subsequent awards? I find it hard to believe he would put all the time to make the custom ribbon rack and not add on the subsequent decorations he would have had for good conduct.

 

Hunt

[Captainofthe7th]

Also wouldn't he have clasps on his Army Good Conduct Medal ribbon for subsequent awards? I find it hard to believe he would put all the time to make the custom ribbon rack and not add on the subsequent decorations he would have had for good conduct.

 

Hunt

 

It appears this predates 1945/1946 due to the lack of a Victory medal for WWII. Knots are not common (or created?) during WWII and if that's the case he would have only one award at the time and working toward the second.

 

Concerns about the uniform for me:

 

- The construction of the rack is the orientation - stacking to one side like this is most common going into the 1950s. I don't know what I've ever seen it done like this on a WWII rack. That isn't to say it wouldn't happen, but it's what I saw first.

 

- If that is a silver star on the WWI victory it would be wrong as it would be a citation star which a Silver Star medal would have replaced. I believe even in WWII the WWI victory medals would have multiple bronze stars and not the silver star in lieu of five. I have re-research this.

 

- A clutchback PUC is not likely for wartime wear. Is it the wide Army type or thin USAF type?

 

All of these things can be explained away once you being to verify facts. I'm not trying to say this is put together, just being cautious.

 

Rob

[huntssurplus]

 

It appears this predates 1945/1946 due to the lack of a Victory medal for WWII. Knots are not common (or created?) during WWII and if that's the case he would have only one award at the time and working toward the second.

 

Concerns about the uniform for me:

 

- The construction of the rack is the orientation - stacking to one side like this is most common going into the 1950s. I don't know what I've ever seen it done like this on a WWII rack. That isn't to say it wouldn't happen, but it's what I saw first.

 

- If that is a silver star on the WWI victory it would be wrong as it would be a citation star which a Silver Star medal would have replaced. I believe even in WWII the WWI victory medals would have multiple bronze stars and not the silver star in lieu of five. I have re-research this.

 

- A clutchback PUC is not likely for wartime wear. Is it the wide Army type or thin USAF type?

 

All of these things can be explained away once you being to verify facts. I'm not trying to say this is put together, just being cautious.

 

Rob

 

But because it would have been at a time when the United States was at war he could have earned one every 1 year instead of 1 every 3 years? And since it was created in 1941, it would have allowed him to earn 3 awards?

[Captainofthe7th]

 

But because it would have been at a time when the United States was at war he could have earned one every 1 year instead of 1 every 3 years? And since it was created in 1941, it would have allowed him to earn 3 awards?

 

No, it doesn't work quite like that. It's one award for the first year while at war after 7 Dec 41 and then the next award comes either three years after that date or later. Not sure if #2 would still be after six years or only four years, but it is not one award for each year during the war.

 

See Wailuna's post #4:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27276-knots-on-the-gcm/

 

If anything he may have been authorized a loop (actually two loops for the second award) and while these do appear later in the war, I don't think they're very common on WWII uniforms to those who could have had them.

 

More info here:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105513-army-good-conduct-medal-loops/

 

 

Rob

[Nkumburis]

Wake is right, there was another thread on those style of ribbon bars

 

you'd have to check this list https://9thinfantrydivision.net/distinguished-service-cross/

 

against this one https://9thinfantrydivision.net/silver-star-recipients/

 

I did a cautionary search for fun and found Taylor, Emmett M. HQ, 9th Infantry Division has both a DSC and SS awarded in ww2

 

Do you know if he served in World War 1?

[Nkumburis]

Also I enjoy the back and forth it's great to work through this. I should have more photos of the uniform around 6 or 7 tomorrow. - Nick K

[huntssurplus]

 

No, it doesn't work quite like that. It's one award for the first year while at war after 7 Dec 41 and then the next award comes either three years after that date or later. Not sure if #2 would still be after six years or only four years, but it is not one award for each year during the war.

 

See Wailuna's post #4:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27276-knots-on-the-gcm/

 

If anything he may have been authorized a loop (actually two loops for the second award) and while these do appear later in the war, I don't think they're very common on WWII uniforms to those who could have had them.

 

More info here:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105513-army-good-conduct-medal-loops/

 

 

Rob

 

Ah okay thanks for the information and resources Rob! Learn something new everyday! Still though, uniform is a bit sketchy to me. Perhaps the answer will lie in the pockets of the jacket?

[Kadet]

My gut feeling is that the jacket may be original. A closer look at the insignia is needed though. CB PUCs can be found on late WWII or early post WWII uniforms but the are not the norm. One of the things I like about it is no Ruptured Duck. That would make sense for an owner that was regular Army and not discharged at the end of the war.

[KurtA]

Once you get the jacket, other details to look at are the types of clutches (smooth or dimpled), reverse shots of the collar brass, reverse shots of all the expert bars, a closeup of the bullion CIB and what a blacklighting of the ribbons looks like.

[63 RECON]

 

Do you know if he served in World War 1?

 

 

I do not I'm sorry, this is not really my field of expertise. I just like the chase of finding more info on a piece like anyone else.

 

I could not find any more info on Emmett Taylor but there may be someone that can look his records up I'm sure.

 

good luck

[Baron3-6]

There are multiple cases of old timers still serving during WWII....though few I've seen were as highly decorated or got around as much. If I had to guess, the majority of his awards are probably from his WWI service.

 

A couple thoughts:

It would make sense to find a guy like this as a Div HQ Co 1SG or Regt HQ 1SG. "Pops" would probably be squared away, but probably was not in the best physical shape to have a line company.

 

He may not have been with 9th Div the whole time....9th stayed as an occupation division after the war ended. 9th had 8 campaigns total, he has 5 with the silver star on the ETO. So he either joined 9th later (After Sicicly?) OR he served somewhere else in the ETO and rolled into the 9th for occupation duty? The Bullion CIB might point to occupation. He has the WWI occupation ribbon - and remember that in the early days before the WWII version was approved, they were handing out the WWI version by mistake to the ETO (they show up on uniforms fairly often).

 

I'm 50/50 on this jacket -I'd like it to be real, but I don't have high hopes. Coming through an auction from an old collection is major red flag. Years ago, most collectors didn't care about the history of a jacket...this might be "Let me make the coolest display jacket I can" with a bunch of parts. If it had a combat patch for WWI service that would help answer a lot...