Help dating USN WW2 rate patches

[sjw83071]

I have been looking at picking up a few WW2 Navy rates and I really know nothing about how to identify WW2 ones. I know some are dated but I would really appreciate any information on how to identify WW2 rates.

 

Thanks in advance.

[29navy]

First off, you have to know what ratings are WWII and which are post-war. Obtain a copy of the book on US Navy rating badges by John Stacey.

 

Second, for the most part, the chevrons were sewn on, blue cloth for whites, red felt felt for blues. Although there were some embroidered chevrons.

[sjw83071]

Thanks for the reply 29navy. I have been using this source to identify WW2 ratings.

 

http://uniform-reference.net/index.html

[sjw83071]

Here is one I am looking at

 

[MastersMate]

Aerographers Mate 2nd Class, Eagle is standing vertical and facing its own right. Worn on the left sleeve of the blue uniform. Chevrons are applied or sewn onto the backing. Would date it from about late 1941, when the eagle was changed to standing vertically, to about the late 40s or very early 50s. By that time most rating badges had shifted to the embroidered directly chevrons..

[sjw83071]

Thanks for the information MastersMate.

[David Minton]

I have been looking at picking up a few WW2 Navy rates and I really know nothing about how to identify WW2 ones. I know some are dated but I would really appreciate any information on how to identify WW2 rates.

 

Thanks in advance.

I would recommend getting an idea of the value of WWII rates in addition to just identifying those of the era. There is a lot of variation in WWII rates with four rates (CPO to 3c) and five backings (blue, white, khaki, green and gray). There was also bullion and/or gold chevrons. Not all combinations were authorized, or even used, so some are likely to not exist.

 

This being the case, WWII rates can go from under $1 to thousands of dollars. If you just want some WWII rates, you should be able to pick up groups and pay around $1 each. For common ones you really shouldn't be paying more than $2-$3. The rate you shared I would consider a $1 rate. Through the process of buying groups to get a single rate, I have boxes of less desirable rates like that one.

 

With literally hundreds of different WWII ear rates, I would look at focusing on one type (I started with blue 1c), or try to get a sample set of as many different types as you can (all five backings, CPO-3c, different bullion styles, gold chevrons, etc.).

 

I find collecting chevrons more interesting than chevrons due to the wide variety of specialty marks. If I recall, there were 70–80 official specialty marks authorized during WWII, with a number of unoffiocial variants in the wild as well. Below is part of my WWII era blue 1c collection.

[David Minton]

Aerographers Mate 2nd Class, Eagle is standing vertical and facing its own right. Worn on the left sleeve of the blue uniform. Chevrons are applied or sewn onto the backing. Would date it from about late 1941, when the eagle was changed to standing vertically, to about the late 40s or very early 50s. By that time most rating badges had shifted to the embroidered directly chevrons..

In mid 1941 the direction of the eagle changed from right to left for all rates except Seaman Branch. The slant vs straight, as far as I understand, was never a regulation change. My understanding is that change happened in the 1920s to 1930s. I have dated rates from the 1930s that have the WWII style eagle.

[sjw83071]

I would recommend getting an idea of the value of WWII rates in addition to just identifying those of the era. There is a lot of variation in WWII rates with four rates (CPO to 3c) and five backings (blue, white, khaki, green and gray). There was also bullion and/or gold chevrons. Not all combinations were authorized, or even used, so some are likely to not exist.

 

This being the case, WWII rates can go from under $1 to thousands of dollars. If you just want some WWII rates, you should be able to pick up groups and pay around $1 each. For common ones you really shouldn't be paying more than $2-$3. The rate you shared I would consider a $1 rate. Through the process of buying groups to get a single rate, I have boxes of less desirable rates like that one.

 

With literally hundreds of different WWII ear rates, I would look at focusing on one type (I started with blue 1c), or try to get a sample set of as many different types as you can (all five backings, CPO-3c, different bullion styles, gold chevrons, etc.).

 

I find collecting chevrons more interesting than chevrons due to the wide variety of specialty marks. If I recall, there were 70–80 official specialty marks authorized during WWII, with a number of unoffiocial variants in the wild as well. Below is part of my WWII era blue 1c collection.

David, thanks for the reply and the advice. I have collected Army WW2 items for almost 30 years but am just taking a look at USN items really for the first time. I am enjoying learning about all the variety. I am sure that the patch I shared is low end. At this point I don't think I want to invest a lot in these. I think I just want a variety of common rates preferring dated ones. It seems what I am seeing that I think would be low end are actually running a little higher that I would expect. Maybe $4 and up.

 

[sjw83071]

Below is part of my WWII era blue 1c collection.

 

Outstanding. Thanks for sharing.

[David Minton]

David, thanks for the reply and the advice. I have collected Army WW2 items for almost 30 years but am just taking a look at USN items really for the first time. I am enjoying learning about all the variety. I am sure that the patch I shared is low end. At this point I don't think I want to invest a lot in these. I think I just want a variety of common rates preferring dated ones. It seems what I am seeing that I think would be low end are actually running a little higher that I would expect. Maybe $4 and up.

 

Happy to help. I have bought maybe 99% of my rates on eBay. When you are starting the best bang for your buck will be large lots. There may be a lot of modern rates mixed in, but the price per rate for the WWII ones is till usually good. I will now pick up these lots just to get one rate, and have piles of extras.

 

An advantage of rate collecting is, to my understanding, is there are few reproductions out there. Some exist, for the hard to find ratings that command a premium price. But when you can buy originals for $1, can't see the point of making fakes. Just be careful of expensive ones. If you start out collecting common ones, you should be safe.

[sjw83071]

Thanks. Are the WW2 chevrons always stitched on? I can see the stitching on the red on blue in the photo. Are the blue on white stitched on as well?

[sigsaye]

Thanks. Are the WW2 chevrons always stitched on? I can see the stitching on the red on blue in the photo. Are the blue on white stitched on as well?

. Yes. They are all stitched on. Very few were fully embroidered. Again, can not emphasize enough, get the book! Before you spend money on a bunch of stuff that is NOT WW2.i

[sjw83071]

. Yes. They are all stitched on. Very few were fully embroidered. Again, can not emphasize enough, get the book! Before you spend money on a bunch of stuff that is NOT WW2.i

Thanks for the advice sigsaye

[0bx]

Totally agree with 29navy and sigsaye. United States Navy Rating badges and Marks 1833 to 2003, by John A. Stacey, is the book to have. I am a Navy rate collector and this book is the bible regarding rates that I rely on. The book can be had for about $25. Tons of information and great pictures explaining the history and evolution of Navy rates.

[sigsaye]

Heres the thing. Just because my beloved Navy, changed specs, they DID NOT WITHDRAW an item from service ( with some exceptions). Applied chevrons is a tip off to WW2. My dad got a set of Tailor Made Blues in Hong Kong about 1965. They had applied chevron crow and hash marks. I own a set of SMC khakis that have applied chevron crow, post 1958. I found a set of applied Stripe hash marks in a bin, in the Navy Exchange innSasebo Japan,that were applied. This means, for Navy, you REALLY, need to know what youre looking at.

[sjw83071]

Thanks 0bx and sigsaye. I appreciate your advice.

[MastersMate]

Just an example about applied chevrons, cleaned up the edges of the photos, but here are two recent snags from e bay.. At first glance they might appear to both be WW2 vintage, but, a minor change was made in 1948 when the USN ratings were revised. The slight change was the direction of the arrow on the sonarmans' headset..

 

 

 

 

[MastersMate]

Just an example about applied chevrons, cleaned up the edges of the photos, but here are two recent snags from e bay.. At first glance they might appear to both be WW2 vintage, but, a minor change was made in 1948 when the USN ratings were revised. The slight change was the direction of the arrow on the sonarmans' headset..

 

 

 

 

[sigsaye]

Another example is that I have a Chief Signalman uniform. The uniform is post 1958. The rate was originally a right arm rate, but in 1948 was abolished. In 1958, it was re established, with the crow on the left sleeve. The uniform is a post 1958, left sleeve applied chevron. So, not always a hard fast rule.

[sjw83071]

Hope you guys can help out with these items I am looking at. Can you tell from the photos if they are all WW2 ITEMS? And what is the rating on the right?

[sigsaye]

The rating on the right is Instrumentman. Chief Petty Officer. Established after 1948. The rest look good for WW2. Understand that the Dress Nlue Cap (Flat Hat) that the US Navy Car Ribbon was used on was in service until April 1963 when it was dropped from the seabag.

[sjw83071]

So you can know the CPO rate is not WW2 based on the rating not becoming effective until 1948. How can you date the PO2 as WW2? I am cool with the tally being post war since I dont think you can date them. They also seem to be rare for a decent price.

[MastersMate]

Carpenter's Mate ( crossed hatchets ) was eliminated in 1948

[sigsaye]

So you can know the CPO rate is not WW2 based on the rating not becoming effective until 1948. How can you date the PO2 as WW2? I am cool with the tally being post war since I dont think you can date them. They also seem to be rare for a decent price.

. Many wartime contracts had no dates or makers mark. Sometimes there were subtle changes in the design of the rate mark, but I dont have my books close right now, so going with WW2 contract. Same with the Aviation Anti Aircraft Gunner Qualification badge. They continued in use post was, until the Navy had no more Turreted airplanes. Early 1950s I believe. But most were made in WW2, just not used until later.