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Question on S1/c(RM) and RM3/c


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#1 tthen

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Posted 14 May 2019 - 05:34 PM

Evening Gents,

Spent the day pouring over my dads info I got from the National Personnel Records Center. Lots of good info and a-lot I don't understand. So when he was in the Amphibious Forces in Europe his rate was S1/c(RM) when he was transferred to the Asiatic Pacific Area he Attained the rate of RM3c. At this point he was no longer in the amphibious forces. My question is what would his jumper looked like as a S1/c(RM) in the amphibious forces and a RM3c not in the amphibious forces. Thank you

 

Tom



#2 Justin B.

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:27 AM

Seaman Radioman would change a little bit during the war: Before mid-1944 the RM lightning sparks would be worn on the lower left sleeve, then after that would be on the upper left sleeve. S1c jumper would have a branch mark around the right shoulder and three cuff stripes on the dress blue. RM3c would have the 3rd Class PO rating badge on the left sleeve and no branch mark of course.

 

The Amphibious Forces patch was also authorized around mid-1944. After he was no longer assigned to an amphibious forces ship or unit, that patch would come off.

 

Justin B.



#3 tthen

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 10:17 AM

Thank you so much Justin, so his branch of service would be Artificer Branch (white band) around right shoulder, with a "sparks" device on the upper left sleeve, correct? Then there would be a Amphibious forces patch on the left shoulder.

One last question, he also had a rate of S2/c(RM). Would that be the same but with 2 white cuff stripes?

Thanks again for your help.

 

Tom



#4 Justin B.

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 04:07 AM

Thank you so much Justin, so his branch of service would be Artificer Branch (white band) around right shoulder, with a "sparks" device on the upper left sleeve, correct? Then there would be a Amphibious forces patch on the left shoulder.


Yes you've got it right.

One last question, he also had a rate of S2/c(RM). Would that be the same but with 2 white cuff stripes?
Thanks again for your help.


Right again. On the dress blue jumper, anyway; on undress blue and white jumpers there would be no difference.

Glad if it's helpful,

Justin B.

#5 tthen

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:52 PM

Thank you again Justin for all your help. It's interesting how you rarely see WW2 jumpers with branch of service and strikers. Seems more often you see PO rank or nothing at all.



#6 29navy

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:40 PM

Wait a minute. If he was with the radio gang, he wouldn't be wearing a seaman branch shoulder braid (seaman branch is blue or white, artificer (engineering) was red) as a non rated striker.

#7 sigsaye

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 06:00 AM

Wait a minute. If he was with the radio gang, he wouldn't be wearing a seaman branch shoulder braid (seaman branch is blue or white, artificer (engineering) was red) as a non rated striker.

. Yes, he would. There were only a couple of non-rates that did not wear the group rate mark, cooks/Stewards, Corpsmen and Musicuans. Everyone else wore the Group Rate.
Even then, not always. My dad reported to his first ship as S/2c, (Seaman Second Cladd). He was snatched up by the Chief Quartermaster and went to the bridge to work there. Later he got a transfer to Engineering (as S/1c). Worked as a Water Tender for like 5 minutes, and went to the Electrician shop. Still a Non Designated S1/c. In 1949, after the Big Change, was designated an EMFN and changed everything over to the New System

Edited by sigsaye, 19 May 2019 - 06:10 AM.


#8 29navy

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 08:02 AM

True, but once he officially became a radioman striker, he was no longer in the Seaman branch.

#9 29navy

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 08:24 AM

I believe you're right. I'm on the road and trying to recall from memory but the artificer branch did wear the seamn branch mark. Sorry for the confusion.

#10 Justin B.

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 04:54 AM

The artificer and special branches used to enter as landsman instead of seaman, and there were also shipwrights for carpenter's crew, but that was changed after WW1 and seaman became the default for non-rated in most branches. Anybody with "seaman" in their rate title wore the right sleeve branch mark.

This is from "All Hands" in 1943, I have outlined the rates who wore the white/blue right sleeve branch mark in blue, the red left sleeve branch mark in red. You can see the few exceptions: Buglers, musicians, hospital apprentices and steward's mates, and only steward's mates didn't start out as apprentice seamen.

 

rates_1943.jpg



#11 tthen

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 07:15 PM

Thank you all for your input!

Tom



#12 sigsaye

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 05:51 AM

As you can see, it was a bit of a complicated and confusing system. Originally, the branch mark was just to idenywhich watch section you were in, Port or Starboard. POs wore their badge on the sleeve corresponding to their watch section.

As time and technology moved ahead, and new rates added, (while older ones eliminated or folded into other rates), the whole system was getting altered. By the end of WW2, it was basically unwieldy (Note, there is no MM3/c). That happened in 1944. But you can see how this system gets difficult. And what about Aviation Rates? Does the ABM wear his crow on the right sleeve like regular BM, or on the Left? (Left, but it was a question, as the ABM started as a BM).

And changing the cuff stripes on your Dress Blues (and Dress Whites when they were still apart of the bag). My dad talked about when the new regs came out in 1948. When he took the blue tape off the white jumpers, the blue dye had bled into the white. Basically, all now work jumpers, needed new ones for inspection and liberty. Just a lot of bother then too.


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