MoH question

[Hobza]

Gentlemen, I have a question. If Medal of Honor are without a soldier's name -

Are they the "backdoor" medals? I read that some were stolen in the factory, or did the soldier get a second piece to wear? or have they ever officially been awarded without a name?

What are the options here?

thnk you very much

Lubos

 

[Dave]

Lubos:

 

This is what we'd call a "loaded" question...there are a lot of ways you can look at this.

 

First, the unnamed HLP marked examples were definitely sold "out the back door". That's a verified fact.

 

Second, most in the field awards of the MOH were done with unnamed awards. They were typically later engraved privately, but I'm sure not all of them were. There are several good threads about those awards on here.

 

Third, all of the other manufactured MOHs have been available as unnamed medals to the general public for decades. If you were a collector in the 1950s and wanted a Type-whatever MOH, you could buy one and add one to your collection. Same went for collectors in all decades. When I bought my MOHs in the 80s, most dealers had unnamed stock and they were consistently $400 each. Now, where these medals came from...I have no idea. I'm sure they were sourced from an official manufacturer somewhere, but exactly where, I don't know.

 

Fourth, if you look at this from the FBI's viewpoint, every unnamed MOH was sold "out the back door". Their theory is that the government contracted a specific manufacturer for "X" awards. The manufacturer made "X" awards and delivered them to the government. The government then stored them securely in a safe until they could be awarded. Therefore, the chain of custody was manufacturer, government, recipient. Thus, if you were to obtain an unnamed one, it was either: 1. made by an unauthorized manufacturer and therefore counterfeit; 2. stolen from the actual manufacturer, the government or a recipient and therefore stolen property; or 3. sold "out the back door" from an authorized manufacturer who illegally made more than their government contract and falling a little into both categories of stolen and counterfeit. Thus, it's a "pick your poison"... if you own an unnamed MOH, you are either in possession of counterfeit goods or stolen property.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Dave

[ajbUSWM]

Dave, so when the U.S. government sold MOHs for decades at the military base post exchange (PX0, what version were they selling? Had to be official versions right?

[Dave]

Dave, so when the U.S. government sold MOHs for decades at the military base post exchange (PX0, what version were they selling? Had to be official versions right?

 

I never saw them, so I can't say.

[digi-shots]

Great questions and explanations!

 

If I can add one question... if my memory is correct, I believe I saw one that was stamped on the back.. "dealer sample" or "exhibit"... something to that effect. What are these type MoH's? I do not remember the maker, but pretty sure is was marked.

[Dave]

Great questions and explanations!

 

If I can add one question... if my memory is correct, I believe I saw one that was stamped on the back.. "dealer sample" or "exhibit"... something to that effect. What are these type MoH's? I do not remember the maker, but pretty sure is was marked.

 

 

There would be "For Exhibition Only" pieces out there. Those were ones that were given by the government to organizations and units to display. These were supposed to be returned to the government, but many circulate on the market, so I assume that controls on them weren't all that great.

 

While I've seen "For Exhibition Only" pieces sell here, at shows, and on eBay, I'd be super hesitant to mention owning a "For Exhibition Only" MOH (even overseas) as the FBI wouldn't have to stretch far at all to declare that as stolen property (because it is).

[digi-shots]

Thanks, Dave... it's been a couple of years or so and I remember something stamped on the back.

[ajbUSWM]

 

 

There would be "For Exhibition Only" pieces out there. Those were ones that were given by the government to organizations and units to display. These were supposed to be returned to the government, but many circulate on the market, so I assume that controls on them weren't all that great.

 

While I've seen "For Exhibition Only" pieces sell here, at shows, and on eBay, I'd be super hesitant to mention owning a "For Exhibition Only" MOH (even overseas) as the FBI wouldn't have to stretch far at all to declare that as stolen property (because it is).

 

For many years museums could request MOHs for display and they would arrive "For Exhibit Only". If the museum closed, they were to be returned. Not sure if that program still exists.

[12A54]

I’ve always wondered why any US medals (especially the MOH) were produced by contractors and not the US Mints who could probably exercise way more control, maybe number them as some were in the past, etc. Commercial firms have a goal of profitability and a temptation to overproduce, oversell, and reduce costs that result in lesser quality. Overall, I have always been disappointed in modern medals and wish the government would do better at this.

[ajbUSWM]

I’ve always wondered why any US medals (especially the MOH) were produced by contractors and not the US Mints who could probably exercise way more control, maybe number them as some were in the past, etc. Commercial firms have a goal of profitability and a temptation to overproduce, oversell, and reduce costs that result in lesser quality. Overall, I have always been disappointed in modern medals and wish the government would do better at this.

 

I suspect that the over production was sold out the front and back doors. The front door to the base PX and the back door to collectors. It is unfortunate that 20-30 years after the sale of a MOH at a U.S. Government Army base PX that the sale would be retroactively declared illegal and item confiscated. Just doesn't seem right. if it was wrong 20-30 years ago... why did the U.S. government do it? Why punish the customers?

[Allan H.]

I'd like to throw in a little more information on the subject. I'll start by saying that soldiers, sailors and airmen COULD purchase a Medal of Honor through their post's clothing sales stores at least until the 1970's. I have recently examined a cased Air Force MOH that still had the Clothing Sales receipt slipped in between the brown cardboard shipping box and the medal case. The purchaser paid $70 for the complete medal set at the time. I would ASSUME that if there were going to be a court test case, this example would be the best one to take to court. It cannot be determined that the medal was "stolen" out the back door since there is a receipt out of a government-run retail facility.

 

A second situation is that several years ago, the US Quartermaster Depot in Philadelphia sold off a very large number of Purple Heart medal pendants that were engraved. Most of the engravings contained misspellings or the centering was off on the lettering etc. I know for a fact that at least two Medal of Honor pendants came out of the buckets of medal pendants. Again, the medals were sold by a government agency, and again, there can be no question that these medals were not a "back door" acquisition.

 

A third situation- the famous George Studley sold copies of the Medal of Honor and other medals out of his catalogs for DECADES. He did this with the full permission and support of the US Government. I believe that the federal attorney prosecuting a case where a Studley produced medal was involved would prove difficult as it couldn't be deemed a counterfeit if it was produced with government permission could it?

 

Dave already mentioned that there were awards of the MOH that were not named. Van Barfoot was one of those recipients. His medal was not engraved until decades after its award.

 

Finally, when I was an ROTC cadet back in the 1980's, a rather famous MOH recipient spoke to out Corps of Cadets. I had the honor of escorting this recipient during his visit with us. I asked if I could see the back side of his medal. He took the medal off and handed it to me. It was unnamed. I know that he saw the confusion in my eyes as I looked at the blank spot on the medal's reverse. He told me that he had received several medals, and that he never wore his named example. He then told me that he had been on a War Bond tour and one morning the marine that was on the tour with him showed up without his MOH around his neck. This veteran told the marine that he had forgotten his medal. The marine winked at him and said that it was OK. it would all work out. As they were getting ready to go on stage, one of the "handlers" realized that the marine didn't have his medal. One was quickly "found" for the marine. Later, the marine told our guest that he had already done this three or four times before and that nobody ever came and asked for the medal back. The vet later tried the same stunt (though he admitted that he had his issued one in his pocket "just in case," and he too got an extra. He repeated this a couple more times during the tour. His last "freebie" was at the dedication of the Marines Memorial at Arlington. Subsequently, he received at least two "newer" examples of the MOH from the Medal of Honor Society. One was to donate for a display, and one just showed up at his house unsolicited.

 

As you can see, there are other scenarios out there that don't exactly fall into the "back door" theft category.

 

Allan

[ajbUSWM]

I'd like to throw in a little more information on the subject. I'll start by saying that soldiers, sailors and airmen COULD purchase a Medal of Honor through their post's clothing sales stores at least until the 1970's. I have recently examined a cased Air Force MOH that still had the Clothing Sales receipt slipped in between the brown cardboard shipping box and the medal case. The purchaser paid $70 for the complete medal set at the time. I would ASSUME that if there were going to be a court test case, this example would be the best one to take to court. It cannot be determined that the medal was "stolen" out the back door since there is a receipt out of a government-run retail facility.

 

A second situation is that several years ago, the US Quartermaster Depot in Philadelphia sold off a very large number of Purple Heart medal pendants that were engraved. Most of the engravings contained misspellings or the centering was off on the lettering etc. I know for a fact that at least two Medal of Honor pendants came out of the buckets of medal pendants. Again, the medals were sold by a government agency, and again, there can be no question that these medals were not a "back door" acquisition.

 

A third situation- the famous George Studley sold copies of the Medal of Honor and other medals out of his catalogs for DECADES. He did this with the full permission and support of the US Government. I believe that the federal attorney prosecuting a case where a Studley produced medal was involved would prove difficult as it couldn't be deemed a counterfeit if it was produced with government permission could it?

 

Dave already mentioned that there were awards of the MOH that were not named. Van Barfoot was one of those recipients. His medal was not engraved until decades after its award.

 

Finally, when I was an ROTC cadet back in the 1980's, a rather famous MOH recipient spoke to out Corps of Cadets. I had the honor of escorting this recipient during his visit with us. I asked if I could see the back side of his medal. He took the medal off and handed it to me. It was unnamed. I know that he saw the confusion in my eyes as I looked at the blank spot on the medal's reverse. He told me that he had received several medals, and that he never wore his named example. He then told me that he had been on a War Bond tour and one morning the marine that was on the tour with him showed up without his MOH around his neck. This veteran told the marine that he had forgotten his medal. The marine winked at him and said that it was OK. it would all work out. As they were getting ready to go on stage, one of the "handlers" realized that the marine didn't have his medal. One was quickly "found" for the marine. Later, the marine told our guest that he had already done this three or four times before and that nobody ever came and asked for the medal back. The vet later tried the same stunt (though he admitted that he had his issued one in his pocket "just in case," and he too got an extra. He repeated this a couple more times during the tour. His last "freebie" was at the dedication of the Marines Memorial at Arlington. Subsequently, he received at least two "newer" examples of the MOH from the Medal of Honor Society. One was to donate for a display, and one just showed up at his house unsolicited.

 

As you can see, there are other scenarios out there that don't exactly fall into the "back door" theft category.

 

Allan

 

Alan,

 

Good points. The current MOH regulations cannot hold up in court... it is not possible.

 

However, they can put current restrictions on new MOH awards but would have to include a legal letter to all MOH recipients and families that they "do not own the MOH", it is only on loan to them. The proverbial "you didn't earn this.". That would be very embarrassing and impossible to maintain of course.

 

The first court challenge will deep six this law.

[dg0223]

In the 90's, you could still buy MoH ribbons from the Kaufman's West catalog. They were 4.95. I also remember when Medals of America was a print catalog, you could purchase replicas of the older strikes of the MoH as well.

 

And if you're a MoH recipient, I'm sure you could have as many MsoH that you'd want.

 

And, if anybody goes around asking you if you own a MoH, I'm sure another military rule could apply in this situation — don't ask, don't tell.

[ajbUSWM]

In the 90's, you could still buy MoH ribbons from the Kaufman's West catalog. They were 4.95. I also remember when Medals of America was a print catalog, you could purchase replicas of the older strikes of the MoH as well.

 

And if you're a MoH recipient, I'm sure you could have as many MsoH that you'd want.

 

And, if anybody goes around asking you if you own a MoH, I'm sure another military rule could apply in this situation — don't ask, don't tell.

 

Frankly, i think the entire Stolen Valor/MOH legislation was designed to weaken American property rights... and has little to do with anyone being "offended." That is why it is toast when it goes to the Supreme Court... no reasonable judge would support this law as written. You can create the rule going forward, but not retroactive which would make all MOHs legal to buy and sell except for the newest issued versions.

[Hobza]

Gentlemen, thank you all for the exhausting answers. I know something new again thanks to this forum.

Thank you very much

 

Lubos

[ajbUSWM]

This renewed discussion triggered my memory and it is VERY SIGNIFICANT.

 

In the past, our US Government sold a bag of moon dust from the Apollo 11 mission for $998 at auction. The new owner figured out the history and realized it was worth a significant amount of money. But the government wanted it back. In 2016, the court ruled that the bag was legally sold and the property of the collector.

 

The collector sold the bag of moon dust for $1.8 million in 2017.

 

The point here is if the government sells it to you (i.e. base PX) you own it and can resell it. Like I said, if this ever goes to court... this law is toast ... no way to defend this ridiculous legislation. If the Congress in Washington can outlaw the widow selling her husband's MOH, they can outlaw YOU owning or selling a TV, a car or anything else that happens to offend them that day. This is America?

 

In other words, this legislation attempts to cancel our property rights found in the Constitution; the very document heroes fought and died defending. How ironic.

 

Hopefully someone will challenge this law in court soon and banish this law from the books forever.

 

These PX MOHs are no different than the moon dust... legal to buy and sell.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-moon-dust-bag-auction-met-20170720-story.html