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WWII USMC enlisted 4-pocket blouse??


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#1 themick

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 04:29 PM

Recently in the "Uniforms for sale" section a Marine enlisted (corporal) 4 pocket rolled collar khaki blouse sold. I've never heard of such an animal. Prior to WWII, enlisted personel had a 2 pocket blouse which was discontinued prior to the war, while officers continued to wear a four pocket khaki blouse into the 1970s. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Steve

#2 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 08:09 AM

Steve, only a guess here... perhaps he picked a discarded or hand-me-down Officers blouse. It is unusual as the winter issue types did have 4 pockets. Another thought, the wear of Officer's private purchase quality while not encouraged, was never truly prohibited as I recall - insofar as the tailoring was correct. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif Its a dam good question... perhaps someone will join in who knows for sure. Semper Fi, Darrell

#3 themick

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Posted 21 December 2008 - 01:00 PM

Hi Darrell,
I do remember in the early 70s that the Khaki blouse for officers was discontinued as was the khaki uniform in general in favor of the "year around" greens No doubt some of our members who served during that time will remember that.

#4 USMCRECON

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:36 AM

I remember seeing a picture back in about mid 1969 of Col David Lownds and the Regimental SGTMAJ (can't remember his name) in Washington receiving the official PUC for the Khe Sanh seige. Both Col Lownds and the SGTMAJ were in khaki blouses.

#5 bobgee

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 05:59 AM

I remember seeing a picture back in about mid 1969 of Col David Lownds and the Regimental SGTMAJ (can't remember his name) in Washington receiving the official PUC for the Khe Sanh seige. Both Col Lownds and the SGTMAJ were in khaki blouses.


That post WWII khaki colored officer's uniform was tropical worsted and was dry-cleaned. Discontinued in the early 70's with the introduction of the all-year-round Forest Green uniform. The pre-WWII umiform was cotton-khaki, both for Officers and EM and was laundered and starched. A big difference. The Mick is correct stating that EM coats only had two upper pockets. Later, The Vandegrift battle jacket was introduced, first in cotton khaki and then in tropical worsted.
Semper Fi....Bobgee

Edited by Bruce Linz, 02 May 2016 - 07:39 AM.


#6 Mark M

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:06 AM

Steve

That was my khaki that was posted and sold you referred to. The cut and material of the uniform was officer grade all the way. The only difference was the use of enlisted buttons and rank insignia on the blouse. It is my belief that an enlisted man purchased this uniform and used it in place of the 2 pocket jacket. While not straight regulations, it was done. In fact, I have spoken to several vets who said they did in fact do just that - purchase officer grade uniforms to wear because they were more confortable and cooler to wear than the standard issue uniform items.

Regards,

Mark

#7 usmc-collector

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 03:37 AM

to clarify this issue, after WW2 from early 1960s (earliest confirmed date I have is 1962) till 1977, the SNCO marines - see reference bellow, were allowed to wear 4 pocket khaki summer coat with open collar and matching pants made of officers type material.

Uniform Regulations says:

Staff Sergeants trough Master Sergeants/First Sergeants are authorized to wear officers type service uniforms (Coat and pants). These uniforms are authorized for leave, liberty, and in garrison, but not in formation with troops.

Sergeant Majors Master Gunnery Sergeants are authorized to wear officers type service uniforms with COAT, manufactured of any cloth of approved standard. These uniforms are authorized at all times including when in formation with troops.

I have one Gunnery Sergeant summer khaki coat in my collection - it is standard officers coat with matching pants, it has 20 years service stripes on sleeves. Also have some photos of SNCOs wearing khaki 4-pocket khaki coats.

JAROSLAV

Edited by usmc-collector, 23 December 2008 - 03:41 AM.


#8 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 05:25 AM

Staff Sergeants trough Master Sergeants/First Sergeants are authorized to wear officers type service uniforms (Coat and pants). These uniforms are authorized for leave, liberty, and in garrison, but not in formation with troops.

Sergeant Majors Master Gunnery Sergeants are authorized to wear officers type service uniforms with COAT, manufactured of any cloth of approved standard. These uniforms are authorized at all times including when in formation with troops.

I have one Gunnery Sergeant summer khaki coat in my collection - it is standard officers coat with matching pants, it has 20 years service stripes on sleeves. Also have some photos of SNCOs wearing khaki 4-pocket khaki coats.

JAROSLAV


Agreed, however I can assure you that the wear of them in formation was not something anyone paid ANY attention to. I recall allot of reverted Officer's wearing these late 60's early 70's and many did not have the lower pocket sewn down. Perhaps others like Bobgee have recollections too.

Back to the original question, as stated it was likely more of a personal choice / opportunity and or out of necessity, as reg's of the period were likely not followed as closely or written as clearly as today's. s/f Darrell

#9 Jeremiah

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 07:50 AM

I've been following this thread with some interest. I believe that most of us who collect WW2 and earlier Marine Corps cloth have come across items that make us scratch our heads. Photo evidence also shows that when marines were away from their commands they tended to do what they pleased with their uniforms. I think the piece that Mark posted for sale is a great example of an NCO that wanted to have a certain look while home on leave, so he went ahead and had that blouse made. Just my two cents.

#10 bobgee

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 08:59 AM

I've been following this thread with some interest. I believe that most of us who collect WW2 and earlier Marine Corps cloth have come across items that make us scratch our heads. Photo evidence also shows that when marines were away from their commands they tended to do what they pleased with their uniforms. I think the piece that Mark posted for sale is a great example of an NCO that wanted to have a certain look while home on leave, so he went ahead and had that blouse made. Just my two cents.


Jeremiah - I Agree - Enlisted "Tailor-mades" are not as common in the Corps as in other branches but they exist. Even during WWII a proud Marine might have a special liberty uniform made. "Tailor-made" Dress blues are often seen. I owned such an example, an Officer-quality Forest Green uniform to a Corporal in the ParaMarines, formerly in the collection of our own Kurt Stauffer, who had it made when he was home on leave from his first tour in the Pacific and combat at Bougainville. It had an Australian-made Para patch with red combat backing. A real beauty! He was studio photographed in it and that sealed the provenance. Sadly he was later KIA at Iwo Jima. I also owned an Officer Quality Australian-made green uniform, complete with Aussie-made buttons and Luke EGAs to an SBD Rear gunner Sgt.
So, they're out there!....never say never! Investigate! Semper Fi.....Bobgee

Edited by bobgee, 23 December 2008 - 09:00 AM.


#11 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 09:05 AM

Jeremiah - I Agree - Enlisted "Tailor-mades" are not as common in the Corps as in other branches but they exist. Even during WWII a proud Marine might have a special liberty uniform made. "Tailor-made" Dress blues are often seen. I owned such an example, an Officer-quality Forest Green uniform to a Corporal in the ParaMarines, formerly in the collection of our own Kurt Stauffer, who had it made when he was home on leave from his first tour in the Pacific and combat at Bougainville. It had an Australian-made Para patch with red combat backing. A real beauty! He was studio photographed in it and that sealed the provenance. Sadly he was later KIA at Iwo Jima. I also owned an Officer Quality Australian-made green uniform, complete with Aussie-made buttons and Luke EGAs to an SBD Rear gunner Sgt.
So, they're out there!....never say never! Investigate! Semper Fi.....Bobgee


DITTO - as I said, was likely more of a personal choice / opportunity and or out of necessity, as reg's of the period were likely not followed as closely or written as clearly as today's.

If anyone has the uniforms Bob mentions - sure would like to see them here... idea for new thread maybe...?
s/f Darrell

#12 usmc-collector

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 01:18 PM

ok, here is my example, khaki coat, Vietnam era, black plastic buttons, unfortunatelly name cut of from taylor label. Only data on label left are 2225-T448 (service or order no.?) Marine Shop, Quantico, Va, Would like to restore to original condition with ribbons and badges (still visible holes from pins), but without name, hard to do.

JAROSLAV

khaki.jpg

#13 C. Roelens

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 03:19 PM

The blouse is named to A.S. DANE.

If anyone can provide info on this Marine I would greatly appreciate it.

S/F,

Chuck

#14 wolventm

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 08:29 PM

I cannot quote chapter and verse on the regulation, but in the sixties, SNCO's (Staff Sergeant and above) were authorized to wear Officer four pocket blouses (both the twill and the greens = the old wash khakis were out by Korea with an exception of Marines on sea duty who were authorized them for an extended period due to the lack of dry cleaning facilities on ships) as long as:
the hip pockets were sewn down so they did not have the extendable flap that the officers had, and
the buttons were changed from Officer to Enlisted buttons.

Most Marines were unaware of this regulation and I saw it questioned many times. Some SNCO's preferred the officer blouse as it was generally of better material and construction.

#15 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 04:11 AM

The blouse is named to A.S. DANE.

If anyone can provide info on this Marine I would greatly appreciate it.

S/F,

Chuck


Chuck, thought it a good idea to get the pic's of the sale thread before the post gets deleated... s/f Darrell


post_569_1229722388.jpg


post_569_1229722421.jpg



#16 Mark M

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 05:17 AM

The blouse is named to A.S. DANE.

If anyone can provide info on this Marine I would greatly appreciate it.

S/F,

Chuck


Chuck

Where did you find the name in it? There is an Arnold S. Dane who was a 2nd Lt in 1934 on the rolls, which would explain the officer cut of the blouse, but not how it ended up as a NCO blouse.

Mark

#17 C. Roelens

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 09:48 AM

Chuck, thought it a good idea to get the pic's of the sale thread before the post gets deleated... s/f Darrell

post_569_1229722388.jpg


post_569_1229722421.jpg


Thanks Darrell. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#18 C. Roelens

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 09:55 AM

Chuck

Where did you find the name in it? There is an Arnold S. Dane who was a 2nd Lt in 1934 on the rolls, which would explain the officer cut of the blouse, but not how it ended up as a NCO blouse.

Mark


Mark,

It is lightly marked inside the collar (left center) DANE A.S.

S/F,

Chuck

#19 Bob Hudson

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 10:24 AM

Mark,

It is lightly marked inside the collar (left center) DANE A.S.

S/F,

Chuck


I did a search of ancestry.com and there is only one Dane who fits the profile and that is, as named above, Arnold S. Dane. He was XO of the 4th Amphibian Tractor Battalion during the recapture of Guam and at Okinawa. His pre-war service was in he reserves and there is a mention of him becoming a general, but not details. None of which explains the enlisted insignia on the uniform.

#20 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 27 December 2008 - 10:52 AM

If he is the same Marine, the following came from... Rebuilding, Again, Part IV By Thomas Habedank

http://74.125.47.132...z...;cd=2&gl=us

This meeting was at the end of 1959 and he was a Maj General at the time.

At the opposite end of the age-scale, the closing weeks of the year saw 20 Marine Reserve general officers both retired and active—join more than a hundred admirals of the Navy in a 2-day Pentagon meeting, described by Secretary of the Navy William B. Franke as "designed to provide a much clearer picture of where the Navy (and Marine Corps) stands today and what it faces tomorrow." Agenda for the gathering included intelligence briefings on the current situation, discussions of Navy and Marine Corps posture, and topical legislative problems.

The roster of Reserve Marines attending read: Lieutenant Generals Karl S. Day and Bertrand T. Fay; Major Generals L. W. T. Waller and Melvin J. Maas; Brigadier Generals Joseph Knowlan, Carlton A. Fisher, Samuel F. Zeiler, Philip G. Strong, John W. Scott, Gooderham L. McCormick, Robert N. Fricke, Arnold Dane, Walter A. Churchill, Charles H. Cox, James E. Howarth, Jr., George E. Tomlinson, Harry R. VanLiew, and John L. Winston; and Brigadier Selectees William H. Klenke, Jr., and Harry N. Lyon.

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 27 December 2008 - 10:56 AM.


#21 C. Roelens

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 04:21 PM

Thanks for the additional info gents. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

I'll most likely keep it as is, however; can someone explain, or show me the difference between WWII era Officer and Enlisted buttons. All of the removeable buttons on the blouse are Waterbury Scovill Mfg. Co.

S/F,

Chuck

#22 Kurt Barickman

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 06:22 PM

Very interesting thread, are the buttons the ones with the cotter key type of backings? I once had an officer set of tans from also with a 3rd Divsion patch with those attachments similiar to USMC officer dress whites. Mark, do you remember where you acquired the tans?

Kurt Barickman

#23 C. Roelens

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:43 PM

Very interesting thread, are the buttons the ones with the cotter key type of backings? I once had an officer set of tans from also with a 3rd Divsion patch with those attachments similiar to USMC officer dress whites. Mark, do you remember where you acquired the tans?

Kurt Barickman


Kurt,

They are the circular type.

Chuck

#24 Mark M

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:06 PM

Thanks for the additional info gents. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

I'll most likely keep it as is, however; can someone explain, or show me the difference between WWII era Officer and Enlisted buttons. All of the removeable buttons on the blouse are Waterbury Scovill Mfg. Co.

S/F,

Chuck


Chuck

There is a slight size difference - enlisted are about 23 cm, officer are abouut 25 cm.

buttons_01.JPG

#25 Mark M

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 06:08 PM

The real easy way to tell them apart though is to look at them from the side - enlisted buttons are flat, officer buttons are dome shaped.

buttons_02.JPG


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