AVG 1st Pursuit Squadron Patch

[Ed Rooney]

I bought this AVG 1st Pursuit Sq patch, as well as a Navy squadron patch, from one of three former AVG pilots at the 1988 Oshkosh airshow. I was a young US Army soldier then and chatted with the three of them for some time. The pilots were Joe Rosbert, RT Smith and (probably) Dick Rossi. I think I got the patches from Rossi, since Smith and Rosbert were selling books. They also signed Smith’s famous P-40 formation photo, which I lost many years ago. I still have the 1st Pursuit patch, but have no idea if it is genuine. I found the black light test, and it does not glow, except for a few bits of thread from when it was on my jacket, but I have found no others like it except for an image of the squadron logo on Rossi’s P-40.

 

Part two of this is what led me here. While researching my patch, I decided to do some research on the second patch that I bought that day. After finding the correct squadron number and tweaking some search terms, Walika’s leather VF-17 patch was staring me in the face, matching my old patch so perfectly that I dug out my old G-1 jacket and started comparing the needle holes to the image. Even the scuffs showing bare leather seem familiar. While not likely, it would be funny if this was my old patch. I have no idea how or if I lost it, sold it, or gave it away.

 

Any opinions on these patches would be most welcome.

 

[Bill Scott]

The only thing I will say is I ran a shop in Milwaukee for 20 years and in that time and was offered AVG patch and wings bought from the pilots that had been bought at the EAA Fly In.The problem was there seemed to be an unending supply of them.I know two or three guys that could duplicate that insignia in a heart beat stitch holes and all.In my opinion it may be real but I do not think you will ever know for 100% sure. Scotty

[Ed Rooney]

Someone brought that up on another forum, basically stating that there was a cottage industry for these things in Mexico in the 80’s and 90’s. I am far from an expert in these things, but I have had research published on other matters, and have come up with the following-

 

1. I’ve only found the Rossi P-40 with this particular style to the stick figures and serpent, making me wonder if he either had a patch and told the artist to make the airplane look the same, or vice-versa. If this was a common reproduction, where are the others just like it? All of the known common reproductions are all over the place.

 

2. It does not appear to be 80’s/90’s paint. It looks like lead based paint. Anyone who has had an old house with lead paint, and lived in a humid climate, will recognize the cracking of the lead paint, which would not stretch with the leather. Also, I think if it was of that late vintage, it would be a little more glowy under the black light.

 

3. The wear is unique. The edges look like normal cockpit wear. I flew with patches on my flight suits and nomex jackets, and the edges took all of the abuse, mostly from shoulder straps. It also has 2 distinctive creases, which don’t look like cockpit wear. Those creases look like they are a result of packing the jacket the same way, many times, like a guy who flew the hump for years. Ask any airline pilot. They pack the same way, every time. I was able to fold my G-1 in the shape of a 1 foot square, which would have creased the patch in just that way if it was sewn on above either of the pockets.

 

Of course all of these are just theories, but until we find a pic with one of these guys wearing this patch, or 2 dozen pics of fakes just like it, that’s all we have. This one is a keeper for me either way.

[Thor996]

I'm with Scotty. Not a fan of this patch.

[phillock]

Hi Ed

 

Is the serpent head /stick figure thin and supple or thick hard leather?

 

Phill

[Ed Rooney]

Hello Phil,

 

The entire patch is relatively thin and supple. Holding it up to a transparent ruler, it looks like about 1.5mm, maybe 2 with the fuzz in the back. The entire patch is very flexible, as pictured.

 

Here are some close-ups, with some details that I am just seeing for the first time.

 

The edges don’t look like wear as I previously thought. Instead, it looks like it is painted directly on dark brown leather, like it was painted on a G-1 jacket and then cut from the jacket.

 

The white paint has a bubble texture. The green does not.

 

There seems to be a glaze over the entire surface. The glazing is not cracked or bubbly like the other paints.

 

 

Hi Ed

 

Is  the serpent head /stick figure thin and  supple or thick hard leather?

 

Phill

[88thcollector]

The Mexican ones I saw were very stiff and thick.

[flytiger]

Not an expert on leather patches ( or anything else for that matter!) bur I like the AVG patch. I had a chance to see an for sure original that a Captain I flew with had of his own when he was with the AVG ( an ACE) and although this was hate to admit it about 50 years ago now I recall it being similar and it was flexible not thick stiff.

Happy to take it off your hands!!! LOL!

[Ed Rooney]

Thanks for the input! Who knows, maybe the same guy. Joe Rosbert and Dick Rossi were among the founders of the Flying Tiger line, weren't they?

 

 

Not an expert on leather patches ( or anything else for that matter!) bur I like the AVG patch. I had a chance to see an for sure original that a Captain I flew with had of his own when he was with the AVG ( an ACE) and although this was hate to admit it about 50 years ago now I recall it being similar and it was flexible not thick stiff.

Happy to take it off your hands!!! LOL!

 

[josesharontraders]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for inviting my comment. Had barely any personal time for this great hobby, so unexpectedly, in the last 3 and a half years. Sorry I promised to comment last weekend but can do now with everything packed as I leave Europe to my first stop in Turkey tomorrow.

Authenticity, Scarcity & Pricing. Your 1st Pursuit Squadron-¨Adam and Eves¨ leather patch was made by either the AVG personnel who worked for CNAC for about a year and a half after July 1942 or by the diminished AVG HQ staff who went to work with General Chennault initially under the 23rd Fighter Group-CATF of the 10th Air Force based in India that took over at end of July, or the 14th Air Force established by CS General Marshall & Gen. Hap Arnold in D.C. to fight in China in mid 1943 after businessman Wendell Wilkie's visit to the CATF and advise to Pres. Roosevelt. These former AVG sold them to their avid fans, who were naturally the 70,000 or so U.S. Personnel,not counting the British, who were rotated into the CBI (China-Burma-India Theatre of War) plus all the stateside-mainland admirers who continued to idolize the AVG Flying Tigers into the 1950s, onwards. The AVG were smart businessmen and traders. All renditions of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Pursuit Squadrons' monikers (Adam&Eve,Panda Bears,&Hell's Angels), were nicely painted by local Kunming Chinese artists or decal stickers placed on jackets, jeeps, fuselages, ambulances, luggage, etc. You will see nary a leather patch sample, for good reason to be explained on next paragraph, of the pursuit squadrons' monikers in any other form from 1941 to end July 1942. Even in the late Larry Pistole's 1980s book there are no such type of patches. I spoke to him overseas twice in the summer month before he went, and he would have mentioned that to me in the long myriad of memorabilia he had or used to have or sold me any lingering rare leather patch like that. The most authoritative and recent update research of contentions and stories and logbooks made by and of the Flying Tigers AVG was reviewed & written by Dan Ford in early 2000s and 2011, if I recall, does not mention such leather patches. Also I'm waiting for him to comment on an AVG plane fuselage number I emailed him recently. Nevertheless, your patch, post AVG, is still vintage WW2 or just after and retains scarcity value, with a price range between $600-$1,800, depending if you have some more provenance. (I'd buy it from you, but am committed to a long trek for work at the moment. Also I have a another dealer, a fellow usmilitaria friend, I owe a transaction. Heheheh). You can even reference the owner of Lost World jackets who displays a 2nd Pursuit Panda Bears leather patch (post AVG) found at auction together with a CBI pilot's bracelet for specific provenance and now quoting for $1,200-$2,000.

Additional. Jingxing Street just into the archway of the main road entrance of the old walled city of Kunming in the 1930s and 40s was the only known tailors' row at the time. In all the AVG diaries I've gotten my hands on, the incessant complaint in hostels 1 to 3where the AVG Flying Tigers personnel billeted, were of pesky offers from Chinese businessmen, especially the rich, to sell to the latter any piece of their clothing for a handsome price, including undergarments. Even the auctions of personal belongings of dead AVG became a business by several of the Flying Tigers. Garments were so scarce until the U.S. closed its mobilization lag time from Pearl Harbour December 1941 with regular flows of material and men by early June 1942. Until then garments, food, raw material and everything were so scarce. The Chinese would have experienced severe starvation and shortage were it not for the Burma Road and the eventual supply by air ¨over the hump.¨

Please also note that because of continuous Sino-Japanese skirmishes from 1931 to the formal war in 1937 with the Mukden Incident, Gen. Chiang Kai Shek and his committee decided to move the country's entire steel, rubber and other critical industries up to the mountains in the the walled city of Kunming, Yunnan Province, as well as hid the large textile factories in the hillsides and valleys and woods just outside. This province plus Guizo & Sichuan Province were the last remaining significant population centers under Chinese control, that the Japanese could not access because of the ring of mountains and the flooded river at the foothill approaching from the coastline to the center of China,an inundation caused by Nationalists blowing up several dams in late 1937. Hence only bombings by Japan's Kwantung Army Air Force was possible, with little gas to search for the factories spread under the trees in the valleys outside Kunming once flying over the city. The back of Yunnan province featured the famous 24-Zig Road, constructed by China to prevent being cut off from the rest of the world, which led down to British Burma's boarder at the Salween River Gorge. So undisputedly, China had textiles, but few apparel factories to convert the fibers into scarce garments already prioritized for the war effort against Japan, than to tailors and civilians--and let alone non-existent Chinese leather makers of patches. Silk on the other hand was easily made as long as the mulberry trees flourished just outside the city, to feed the silkworms.

(How ironic, there is a U.S. Consul office in Kunming today promoting Sino-U.S. relations via its picture display of the 14th Air Force and Flying Tigers cooperating with China during the war, whilst the city itself, no longer with the walls whose stones were used by the Communists in the 1950s, features the modern Jingxing street, still with the retained archway, as a bird and flower market, with lots of tailor and trinket stores mixed in with the fish hawkers--a nice tourist site. Historically in the 1800s up to the Communist Era, the powers in Peking/Beijing threw troublesome bureaucrats like rising Mandarin officials, Deng Xiao Ping, or even the rising Xi Jinping to far away Kunming, where nobody cared.)

Lastly, there were 3 known official orders of insignia to the tailors of Jingxing Street by the AVG, and paid for by AVG GHQ, conducted by Skip Adaire, Chief of Staff of Gen. Chennault, and several AVG pilots between the early part of May until the last order in early June. These trips to the tailors on Jingxing Street determined the final design of the flying tiger drawn with rendered border, silk and bullion material used and which colour series to be delivered firstly and lastly that today have been curated by collectors and museums from the original Flying Tigers AVG. These orders within Kunming, barring the ones ordered by aces like Bob Neale on R&R in India, were distributed to the AVG in the 3rd and 4th week of May, with the last batch--including a very limited special batch made with elaborate bullion for the loyal few AVG pilots to Chennault--handed out by mid June, to accommodate the other spread out AVG pilots and crew who mustered their aircraft in Kunming or the scatter runways before their disbandment. Also many returned to Kunming due to the parlous reduction in available P40s to fly by early June and because of the effective direction of flight operations of AVG assets' missions to escort bombers by the U.S. Military from that time. These patches were all made of silk and bullion and given to the AVG mostly in their hostels and AVG GHQ: 1) to inspire the ogling newly arrived U.S. Personnel; & 2) to set the AVG apart and to elevate their seasoned status as pilots, aces, flight crews, logistics and flight operations personnel; and finally, 3) as official souvenirs of appreciation by General Chennault for the disbanding AVG Flying Tigers. That's why you'll also see them patched on good uniform (worn in various awards, turnover & end of AVG ceremonies), from material flown in by the U.S. Military in the early part of June, and/or even unsewn/unused by the receiving AVG personnel, hurriedly departing, who sold them off to collectors or donated to museums, once stateside.

I'll share some research I've done during the last four years on authentic AVG patches versus commemorative, reunion & souvenir-traded WW2 era AVG squadron patches, eventually when Life gives me the time finally and hopefully this year. For now, here is 1 of two comprehensive patch comparisons and their sources that I've blurred until ready to share the research. There are no leather patches of the Flying Tigers AVG considered in their actual period of history.

Hope this helps, Ed.

José

[Thor996]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for inviting my comment. Had barely any personal time for this great hobby, so unexpectedly, in the last 3 and a half years. Sorry I promised to comment last weekend but can do now with everything packed as I leave Europe to my first stop in Turkey tomorrow.

Authenticity, Scarcity & Pricing. Your 1st Pursuit Squadron-¨Adam and Eves¨ leather patch was made by either the AVG personnel who worked for CNAC for about a year and a half after July 1942 or by the diminished AVG HQ staff who went to work with General Chennault initially under the 23rd Fighter Group-CATF of the 10th Air Force based in India that took over at end of July, or the 14th Air Force established by CS General Marshall & Gen. Hap Arnold in D.C. to fight in China in mid 1943 after businessman Wendell Wilkie's visit to the CATF and advise to Pres. Roosevelt. These former AVG sold them to their avid fans, who were naturally the 70,000 or so U.S. Personnel,not counting the British, who were rotated into the CBI (China-Burma-India Theatre of War) plus all the stateside-mainland admirers who continued to idolize the AVG Flying Tigers into the 1950s, onwards. The AVG were smart businessmen and traders. All renditions of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Pursuit Squadrons' monikers (Adam&Eve,Panda Bears,&Hell's Angels), were nicely painted by local Kunming Chinese artists or decal stickers placed on jackets, jeeps, fuselages, ambulances, luggage, etc. You will see nary a leather patch sample, for good reason to be explained on next paragraph, of the pursuit squadrons' monikers in any other form from 1941 to end July 1942. Even in the late Larry Pistole's 1980s book there are no such type of patches. I spoke to him overseas twice in the summer month before he went, and he would have mentioned that to me in the long myriad of memorabilia he had or used to have or sold me any lingering rare leather patch like that. The most authoritative and recent update research of contentions and stories and logbooks made by and of the Flying Tigers AVG was reviewed & written by Dan Ford in early 2000s and 2011, if I recall, does not mention such leather patches. Also I'm waiting for him to comment on an AVG plane fuselage number I emailed him recently. Nevertheless, your patch, post AVG, is still vintage WW2 or just after and retains scarcity value, with a price range between $600-$1,800, depending if you have some more provenance. (I'd buy it from you, but am committed to a long trek for work at the moment. Also I have a another dealer, a fellow usmilitaria friend, I owe a transaction. Heheheh). You can even reference the owner of Lost World jackets who displays a 2nd Pursuit Panda Bears leather patch (post AVG) found at auction together with a CBI pilot's bracelet for specific provenance and now quoting for $1,200-$2,000.

Additional. Jingxing Street just into the archway of the main road entrance of the old walled city of Kunming in the 1930s and 40s was the only known tailors' row at the time. In all the AVG diaries I've gotten my hands on, the incessant complaint in hostels 1 to 3where the AVG Flying Tigers personnel billeted, were of pesky offers from Chinese businessmen, especially the rich, to sell to the latter any piece of their clothing for a handsome price, including undergarments. Even the auctions of personal belongings of dead AVG became a business by several of the Flying Tigers. Garments were so scarce until the U.S. closed its mobilization lag time from Pearl Harbour December 1941 with regular flows of material and men by early June 1942. Until then garments, food, raw material and everything were so scarce. The Chinese would have experienced severe starvation and shortage were it not for the Burma Road and the eventual supply by air ¨over the hump.¨

Please also note that because of continuous Sino-Japanese skirmishes from 1931 to the formal war in 1937 with the Mukden Incident, Gen. Chiang Kai Shek and his committee decided to move the country's entire steel, rubber and other critical industries up to the mountains in the the walled city of Kunming, Yunnan Province, as well as hid the large textile factories in the hillsides and valleys and woods just outside. This province plus Guizo & Sichuan Province were the last remaining significant population centers under Chinese control, that the Japanese could not access because of the ring of mountains and the flooded river at the foothill approaching from the coastline to the center of China,an inundation caused by Nationalists blowing up several dams in late 1937. Hence only bombings by Japan's Kwantung Army Air Force was possible, with little gas to search for the factories spread under the trees in the valleys outside Kunming once flying over the city. The back of Yunnan province featured the famous 24-Zig Road, constructed by China to prevent being cut off from the rest of the world, which led down to British Burma's boarder at the Salween River Gorge. So undisputedly, China had textiles, but few apparel factories to convert the fibers into scarce garments already prioritized for the war effort against Japan, than to tailors and civilians--and let alone non-existent Chinese leather makers of patches. Silk on the other hand was easily made as long as the mulberry trees flourished just outside the city, to feed the silkworms.

(How ironic, there is a U.S. Consul office in Kunming today promoting Sino-U.S. relations via its picture display of the 14th Air Force and Flying Tigers cooperating with China during the war, whilst the city itself, no longer with the walls whose stones were used by the Communists in the 1950s, features the modern Jingxing street, still with the retained archway, as a bird and flower market, with lots of tailor and trinket stores mixed in with the fish hawkers--a nice tourist site. Historically in the 1800s up to the Communist Era, the powers in Peking/Beijing threw troublesome bureaucrats like rising Mandarin officials, Deng Xiao Ping, or even the rising Xi Jinping to far away Kunming, where nobody cared.)

Lastly, there were 3 known official orders of insignia to the tailors of Jingxing Street by the AVG, and paid for by AVG GHQ, conducted by Skip Adaire, Chief of Staff of Gen. Chennault, and several AVG pilots between the early part of May until the last order in early June. These trips to the tailors on Jingxing Street determined the final design of the flying tiger drawn with rendered border, silk and bullion material used and which colour series to be delivered firstly and lastly that today have been curated by collectors and museums from the original Flying Tigers AVG. These orders within Kunming, barring the ones ordered by aces like Bob Neale on R&R in India, were distributed to the AVG in the 3rd and 4th week of May, with the last batch--including a very limited special batch made with elaborate bullion for the loyal few AVG pilots to Chennault--handed out by mid June, to accommodate the other spread out AVG pilots and crew who mustered their aircraft in Kunming or the scatter runways before their disbandment. Also many returned to Kunming due to the parlous reduction in available P40s to fly by early June and because of the effective direction of flight operations of AVG assets' missions to escort bombers by the U.S. Military from that time. These patches were all made of silk and bullion and given to the AVG mostly in their hostels and AVG GHQ: 1) to inspire the ogling newly arrived U.S. Personnel; & 2) to set the AVG apart and to elevate their seasoned status as pilots, aces, flight crews, logistics and flight operations personnel; and finally, 3) as official souvenirs of appreciation by General Chennault for the disbanding AVG Flying Tigers. That's why you'll also see them patched on good uniform (worn in various awards, turnover & end of AVG ceremonies), from material flown in by the U.S. Military in the early part of June, and/or even unsewn/unused by the receiving AVG personnel, hurriedly departing, who sold them off to collectors or donated to museums, once stateside.

I'll share some research I've done during the last four years on authentic AVG patches versus commemorative, reunion & souvenir-traded WW2 era AVG squadron patches, eventually when Life gives me the time finally and hopefully this year. For now, here is 1 of two comprehensive patch comparisons and their sources that I've blurred until ready to share the research. There are no leather patches of the Flying Tigers AVG considered in their actual period of history.

Hope this helps, Ed.

José

 

wow. I stand highly corrected - congrats guy. Learn something new all the time on this forum.

 

 

[Ed Rooney]

Brilliant. Thanks for your thorough and insightful comments.

 

I had read somewhere else that leather patches weren't really done while the AVG was in the thick of it, and most of the photos we see back this up. Apparently they were issued new jackets, and since the US wasn't in the war yet, a bunch of USAAF, Navy and USMC squadron patches would not have been a good look.

 

Other than my foggy memory and my Oshkosh '86 and '88 patches, no provenance. I do have a lead on the signed print, though. On the way home from Oshkosh, my father and I stopped at the USAF Museum in Dayton, OH. Among the trinkets we bought was a USAF Museum coffee table book. I might have stashed the signed print within that book, and that book is still in a bookcase at my late father's house. We will see.

 

 

 

 

Hi Ed,

Thanks for inviting my comment. Had barely any personal time for this great hobby, so unexpectedly, in the last 3 and a half years. Sorry I promised to comment last weekend but can do now with everything packed as I leave Europe to my first stop in Turkey tomorrow.

Authenticity, Scarcity & Pricing. Your 1st Pursuit Squadron-¨Adam and Eves¨ leather patch was made by either the AVG personnel who worked for CNAC for about a year and a half after July 1942 or by the diminished AVG HQ staff who went to work with General Chennault initially under the 23rd Fighter Group-CATF of the 10th Air Force based in India that took over at end of July, or the 14th Air Force established by CS General Marshall & Gen. Hap Arnold in D.C. to fight in China in mid 1943 after businessman Wendell Wilkie's visit to the CATF and advise to Pres. Roosevelt. These former AVG sold them to their avid fans, who were naturally the 70,000 or so U.S. Personnel,not counting the British, who were rotated into the CBI (China-Burma-India Theatre of War) plus all the stateside-mainland admirers who continued to idolize the AVG Flying Tigers into the 1950s, onwards. The AVG were smart businessmen and traders. All renditions of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Pursuit Squadrons' monikers (Adam&Eve,Panda Bears,&Hell's Angels), were nicely painted by local Kunming Chinese artists or decal stickers placed on jackets, jeeps, fuselages, ambulances, luggage, etc. You will see nary a leather patch sample, for good reason to be explained on next paragraph, of the pursuit squadrons' monikers in any other form from 1941 to end July 1942. Even in the late Larry Pistole's 1980s book there are no such type of patches. I spoke to him overseas twice in the summer month before he went, and he would have mentioned that to me in the long myriad of memorabilia he had or used to have or sold me any lingering rare leather patch like that. The most authoritative and recent update research of contentions and stories and logbooks made by and of the Flying Tigers AVG was reviewed & written by Dan Ford in early 2000s and 2011, if I recall, does not mention such leather patches. Also I'm waiting for him to comment on an AVG plane fuselage number I emailed him recently. Nevertheless, your patch, post AVG, is still vintage WW2 or just after and retains scarcity value, with a price range between $600-$1,800, depending if you have some more provenance. (I'd buy it from you, but am committed to a long trek for work at the moment. Also I have a another dealer, a fellow usmilitaria friend, I owe a transaction. Heheheh). You can even reference the owner of Lost World jackets who displays a 2nd Pursuit Panda Bears leather patch (post AVG) found at auction together with a CBI pilot's bracelet for specific provenance and now quoting for $1,200-$2,000.

Additional. Jingxing Street just into the archway of the main road entrance of the old walled city of Kunming in the 1930s and 40s was the only known tailors' row at the time. In all the AVG diaries I've gotten my hands on, the incessant complaint in hostels 1 to 3where the AVG Flying Tigers personnel billeted, were of pesky offers from Chinese businessmen, especially the rich, to sell to the latter any piece of their clothing for a handsome price, including undergarments. Even the auctions of personal belongings of dead AVG became a business by several of the Flying Tigers. Garments were so scarce until the U.S. closed its mobilization lag time from Pearl Harbour December 1941 with regular flows of material and men by early June 1942. Until then garments, food, raw material and everything were so scarce. The Chinese would have experienced severe starvation and shortage were it not for the Burma Road and the eventual supply by air ¨over the hump.¨

Please also note that because of continuous Sino-Japanese skirmishes from 1931 to the formal war in 1937 with the Mukden Incident, Gen. Chiang Kai Shek and his committee decided to move the country's entire steel, rubber and other critical industries up to the mountains in the the walled city of Kunming, Yunnan Province, as well as hid the large textile factories in the hillsides and valleys and woods just outside. This province plus Guizo & Sichuan Province were the last remaining significant population centers under Chinese control, that the Japanese could not access because of the ring of mountains and the flooded river at the foothill approaching from the coastline to the center of China,an inundation caused by Nationalists blowing up several dams in late 1937. Hence only bombings by Japan's Kwantung Army Air Force was possible, with little gas to search for the factories spread under the trees in the valleys outside Kunming once flying over the city. The back of Yunnan province featured the famous 24-Zig Road, constructed by China to prevent being cut off from the rest of the world, which led down to British Burma's boarder at the Salween River Gorge. So undisputedly, China had textiles, but few apparel factories to convert the fibers into scarce garments already prioritized for the war effort against Japan, than to tailors and civilians--and let alone non-existent Chinese leather makers of patches. Silk on the other hand was easily made as long as the mulberry trees flourished just outside the city, to feed the silkworms.

(How ironic, there is a U.S. Consul office in Kunming today promoting Sino-U.S. relations via its picture display of the 14th Air Force and Flying Tigers cooperating with China during the war, whilst the city itself, no longer with the walls whose stones were used by the Communists in the 1950s, features the modern Jingxing street, still with the retained archway, as a bird and flower market, with lots of tailor and trinket stores mixed in with the fish hawkers--a nice tourist site. Historically in the 1800s up to the Communist Era, the powers in Peking/Beijing threw troublesome bureaucrats like rising Mandarin officials, Deng Xiao Ping, or even the rising Xi Jinping to far away Kunming, where nobody cared.)

Lastly, there were 3 known official orders of insignia to the tailors of Jingxing Street by the AVG, and paid for by AVG GHQ, conducted by Skip Adaire, Chief of Staff of Gen. Chennault, and several AVG pilots between the early part of May until the last order in early June. These trips to the tailors on Jingxing Street determined the final design of the flying tiger drawn with rendered border, silk and bullion material used and which colour series to be delivered firstly and lastly that today have been curated by collectors and museums from the original Flying Tigers AVG. These orders within Kunming, barring the ones ordered by aces like Bob Neale on R&R in India, were distributed to the AVG in the 3rd and 4th week of May, with the last batch--including a very limited special batch made with elaborate bullion for the loyal few AVG pilots to Chennault--handed out by mid June, to accommodate the other spread out AVG pilots and crew who mustered their aircraft in Kunming or the scatter runways before their disbandment. Also many returned to Kunming due to the parlous reduction in available P40s to fly by early June and because of the effective direction of flight operations of AVG assets' missions to escort bombers by the U.S. Military from that time. These patches were all made of silk and bullion and given to the AVG mostly in their hostels and AVG GHQ: 1) to inspire the ogling newly arrived U.S. Personnel; & 2) to set the AVG apart and to elevate their seasoned status as pilots, aces, flight crews, logistics and flight operations personnel; and finally, 3) as official souvenirs of appreciation by General Chennault for the disbanding AVG Flying Tigers. That's why you'll also see them patched on good uniform (worn in various awards, turnover & end of AVG ceremonies), from material flown in by the U.S. Military in the early part of June, and/or even unsewn/unused by the receiving AVG personnel, hurriedly departing, who sold them off to collectors or donated to museums, once stateside.

I'll share some research I've done during the last four years on authentic AVG patches versus commemorative, reunion & souvenir-traded WW2 era AVG squadron patches, eventually when Life gives me the time finally and hopefully this year. For now, here is 1 of two comprehensive patch comparisons and their sources that I've blurred until ready to share the research. There are no leather patches of the Flying Tigers AVG considered in their actual period of history.

Hope this helps, Ed.

José

 

[Ed Rooney]

My father’s “Airshow jacket”, with patches from Oshkosh ‘86 and the USAF Museum.

[vintageproductions]

I understand, I think the post above and would love to know where the order information came from, but the patch that started this thread was not made during the early 1940's, it was made in the 1980's.

 

It is a fake that was heavily available and it wasn't unusual to have the AVG vets or for that fact any pilot have copy squadron patches available that they would sell to fans at air shows. I've seen lots of fake VMF-214 patches signed by Boyington, to know this fact.

 

Original CBI squadron patches do not have the traits that the paint or that the leather shows in the first photos.

[Ed Rooney]

I understand what you are saying. A similar thing was said in this thread and over in VLJ where I originally posted. I’m definitely not one of those guys who will argue for authenticity because it happens to be the one I possess. I just want to know the truth, one way or another. That said, don’t take any of this as argumentative. I simply want to go where the logic takes me. Since I “rediscovered” this patch among my stuff, I’ve been looking at it from both sides.

 

I will start by throwing you a bone. Why would Rosbert, Rossi or any of the others go around selling their old AVG stuff? It makes more sense that they had a stash of airshow stuff made up to sell in their retirements.

 

Now a Pro - Common fakes are...common. We would see more of these. I think we’ve all seen the 1980’s distressed Avirex mall jackets with the worn looking Flying Tigers and 555th TFG patch. There are 3 or 4 on eBay at any given moment. I have not seen any of these vintage Adam and Eve Patches, at all. I’ve seen just a few new ones that are of the same design.

 

 

It’s a cool item, either way, since I got it from a Flying Tiger pilot. I sure would like to have one of those Boyington autographed fake VMF-214 patches.

 

 

I understand, I think the post above and would love to know where the order information came from, but the patch that started this thread was not made during the early 1940's, it was made in the 1980's.

 

It is a fake that was heavily available and it wasn't unusual to have the AVG vets or for that fact any pilot have copy squadron patches available that they would sell to fans at air shows. I've seen lots of fake VMF-214 patches signed by Boyington, to know this fact.

 

Original CBI squadron patches do not have the traits that the paint or that the leather shows in the first photos.

[josesharontraders]

I understand, I think the post above and would love to know where the order information came from, but the patch that started this thread was not made during the early 1940's, it was made in the 1980's.

 

It is a fake that was heavily available and it wasn't unusual to have the AVG vets or for that fact any pilot have copy squadron patches available that they would sell to fans at air shows. I've seen lots of fake VMF-214 patches signed by Boyington, to know this fact.

 

Original CBI squadron patches do not have the traits that the paint or that the leather shows in the first photos.

 

 

Hello Bob from Turkey,

 

Long time and hope all is good with you. I stand corrected on the dating for Eds 1st pursuit flying tigers leather patch. I am not familiar with any leather patchworks in the period of the AVG, as stated, and couched my encouragement for Eds quest depending on the provenance. The owner of Lost Worlds, a master jacket maker and collector/trader has featured his panda bears 2nd pursuit patch together with a cbi period bracelet of the pilot owner for both, whence the logic of such flying tigers leather patches post AVG being collected as souvenirs. I also dont possess any such AVG leather patch.

 

So I defer to your more expert knowledge in respect the 80s souvenir Adam and Eve patch shown by Ed.

 

Regards to all.

 

Jose

 

 

 

Ps. Ed, still has some value but much less without provenance (and that paint Admin Boss Bob properly cited)

[josesharontraders]

I understand, I think the post above and would love to know where the order information came from, but the patch that started this thread was not made during the early 1940's, it was made in the 1980's.

 

It is a fake that was heavily available and it wasn't unusual to have the AVG vets or for that fact any pilot have copy squadron patches available that they would sell to fans at air shows. I've seen lots of fake VMF-214 patches signed by Boyington, to know this fact.

 

Original CBI squadron patches do not have the traits that the paint or that the leather shows in the first photos.

 

 

Hello Bob from Manila,

 

Will share my research eventually, but I'm still waiting for a reply from the SDASM's curator, combing over a British IWM's archive (Imp.WarMuseum) of a report by a lady British subject who visited with staff of a Brit Marshall the Kunming setup of the AVG Flying Tigers in behalf of British Intelligence, and from foremost AVG author Dan Ford. The dates are specific, but the provenance, anecdotes, donors, & dates of the set of particular period AVG patches already displayed by collectors, museums, and traders as corroborating examples, would corroborate all the more the current study.

 

 

Sincerely & Un abrazo (goodnight),

 

jose

[josesharontraders]

Hello Phil,

 

The entire patch is relatively thin and supple. Holding it up to a transparent ruler, it looks like about 1.5mm, maybe 2 with the fuzz in the back. The entire patch is very flexible, as pictured.

 

Here are some close-ups, with some details that I am just seeing for the first time.

 

The edges don’t look like wear as I previously thought. Instead, it looks like it is painted directly on dark brown leather, like it was painted on a G-1 jacket and then cut from the jacket.

 

The white paint has a bubble texture. The green does not.

 

There seems to be a glaze over the entire surface. The glazing is not cracked or bubbly like the other paints.

 

Dear Ed,

 

Hope you are well.

 

Sometime early this year you asked me to comment on this patch. At the time, I had been focused on work whilst in the last 4 years been jotting down notes on true AVG Flying Tigers patches.

 

From The Latest AVG Flying Tigers Patch Study. Now I've collected my thoughts, got back into the hobby, & completed a comprehensive research on AVG Patches, I fully concur with Admin Bob that your patch is a fake. But, truly, it is still a souvenir reproduction patch post AVG and post WW2. In my research on AVG Patch chronology, whether period, post AVG WW2 period, or way after WW2, there was no such thing as a period AVG Flying Tigers leather-made patch. The only exception was the very early insignia of the Peacock unity pins painted on leather with an attributed number to the American Volunteer Group member, but in very limited quantity because the AVG preferred the extremely scarce actual numbered pin displayed on the sides of their caps for convenience. (Plus, you can say with the biases of those times there were too many Chinese characters on this patch). Materials for clothing from silk & gabardine were so scarce, let alone leather material for the various squadrons. So, all squadron insignia were painted on the jackets, and that would include 1st Squadron Adam & Eves, 2nd Squadron Pandas, & 3rd Squadron Hell's Angels. You have to realise the morale-boosting WW2 movies made for the Flying Tigers whet the huge demand for the Flying Tigers' unit insignia including from their squadrons--including demand from the 70,000 fellow China-Burma-India (CBI) soldiers rotating into China, and from domestic U.S. mainland fans wanting a hold of a symbol of defiance against the invading Japanese at the time.

 

Please see the following page lifted from my tiger zoo discussion number 253. Anyway, in the end it is a nice souvenir piece.

[josesharontraders]

Here is downtown Jinxing Street in early 1942, and Jinxing Street with only the arch remaining with new cemented columns support in modern times. The old ancient wall surrounding the city at the time of the AVG Flying Tigers was brutally torn down by young fanatics of the Cultural Revolution for material to set up communes in the hinterlands. In happier times, if any there be in the last 150 years in China, Jinxing Street was the small commercial hub where tailors and other merchants & traders congregated.

Also beyond the AVG Patches of the Flying Tiger ordered by Pilot RT Smith and AVG 2nd-in-command Skip Adair, it was mentioned they ordered other silk embroideries, which we assume to have been peacock patches and banners, which are cherished by serious collectors today.

The Rarest Flying Tigers Period Patch--the Silk Peacock Patch & the earliest of the AVG patches, the Numbered, Leather Peacock Patch. Jinxing Street tailors in Kunming, wartime China also weaved the Official Silk Peacock Patch found mostly with Flying Tigers members assigned at the Office of the Commander for the AVG. It should be noted that some AVG in the Kunming GHQ, and pilots & crew preferring to wear thick pilot jump suits, early on had ordered leather insignia renditions of their numbered Peacock Pins, making those early April 1942 patches some of the rarest AVG breast or shoulder insignia ever, whilst squadron insignia of the Adam & Eves, Pandas, or Hell's Angels for pilots, mechanics, armorers & other crew are found mostly painted on the Flying Tigers' jackets. One can see some of the AVG crew and pilots, though a bit dark and grainy, with this earliest insignia Peacock patch in the late Larry M. Pistole's book, The Pictorial History of the Flying Tigers. I strongly believe, especially from the notes of AVG George Paxton, the opportunity to source leather material & commission their fabrication in British India was presented in late February to March 1942 because of the many flights from Rawalpindi or Calcutta by the AVG pilots & Pan Am Africa crews (CNAC-affiliated) that were organised by Pappy Paxton, the finance officer of the Flying Tigers more often based in Calcutta, British India, to ferry new U.S.-supplied P-40N Kitthyhawks and/or P-43s for the Chinese Army Airforce, after President Roosevelt followed up his January 1942 order to his disorganised Army Airforce of sending concrete support because,¨China must not fall¨.

Here is my Silk Peacock patch taken with flash, thanks to RT Smith & Skip Adair, and a picture I took in June 2019 from the San Diego A&S Museum of the very earliest Flying Tigers patch, the leather Peacock patch of circa Feb-March 1942.

 

 

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[Ed Rooney]

Jose, thank you for the clarification and the historical perspective. To recap, There were no period AVG leather patches, therefore this one is a later, possibly 1980’s “souvenir” patch.

[josesharontraders]

Jose, thank you for the clarification and the historical perspective. To recap, There were no period AVG leather patches, therefore this one is a later, possibly 1980’s “souvenir” patch.

 

Hi Ed,

 

Good evening/Buenas noches from Southern Spain.

 

Yes, definitely not a period 1941-July 1942 period AVG Flying Tigers Patch. But but but, to satisfy the huge demand from ogling newly arrived CATF 23rd Fighter Group (July '42-End Dec '43) & 14th Air Force (end 1943 actual execution onwards) admirers numbering between 70,000-90,000, we cannot fault the early setup of Maj. Gen. Claire Chennault's Flying Tigers Association from profiteering through sale of AVG legends souvenir patches, etc. to these men + the immense demand from US mainland fans.

 

In the end, you have to see if your patch for the squadron was made WW2 or in the 80s or throughout the consistent idolisation of the returning AVG Flying Tigers--which will determine your price. Heck, I offered $2,000-$2,500 (and low-balled you a bit initially in my quiet careless excitement) for the owner of Lost Worlds, Inc's.--a consummate WW2 jacket collector & maker--2nd Squadron Pandas patch accompanied by a 14th Airforce ¨Flying Tigers¨ members' bracelet. Now I learn myself these were not made during the period AVG. For the WW2 age though I'd do his patch max $350-$480. So, research more if it is from that yonder WW2 era or not. If not, it'll be less than half of the latter range or $190-$290.

 

Additional Evidence. Look at page 121, both pictures, on author Larry Pistole's book, The Pictorial History of the Flying Tigers, which shows the AVG 1st Squadron Adam & Eves--the only squadron + some GHQ to receive these belated insignia--wearing the official Silk Peacock Patch on the breast of their leather jackets. These insignia were commissioned on May 12 & 13, 1942 by AVG Flying Tigers co-2nd-in-Command Skip Adair. They were distributed to the Chungking 1st Squadron non-striking pilots after May 26, 1942, while the normal 1st & 2nd series AVG Patch went out on May 22, 1942. By the way, this precise page and the Peacock Patch were discussed by Lee Burgard, son of 1st Squadron George Burgard, as he tried to identify the timeframe and use by his Dad of the Silk Peacock Patch, and not the AVG Flying Tiger patches, since those latter pilots & crew were in Hostel 2, not in downtown Hostel 1 with RT Smith and the 2nd & 3rd Squadron, crew, ¨mechs¨, and ground staff, on the night of May 22. His dad, part of the Adam & Eves, were to leave Hostel 2, early in the morning for Chungking to stop the incessant Japanese bombings. So no squadron patches, but just squadron insignia painted on jackets.

 

Other pages. Look at page 184, showing Flt. Leader Chuck Sawyer of the 1st Squadron wearing the Silk Peacock Patch; and page 186 a picture of Flt. Leader Pilot Ed Liebolt wearing the same, also a 1st Squadron dude. On page 198 & 199, the ¨final class¨ photo in mid June of the ground personnel of the 3rd Squadron Hell's Angels, with the unit insignia painted on the jackets, not patched. These latter guys were to leave mid June 1942, well before the July 4, 1942 official ending.

 

The rest, Ed, my fellow hobbyist, I leave to you to research on your patch for its final value, but I think many would be happy to buy such a good sample of post AVG memorabilia, WW2 or 80s, doesn't matter.

 

Sincerely & have a good weekend.

 

jose

 

 

 

ps. look at the next pages

 

 

 

 

 

[josesharontraders]

Excerpts of my research from tiger zoo forum discussion number 256:

Posted 23 October 2019 - 02:53 AM

Why There Were Unofficial Period AVG Flying Tigers Patch Variants, Even Made in India, attributed to the Chungking-based AVG. Early in the mornings of May 23 to May 24, 1942 an air wing of pilots & P-40E ¨Kittyhawks¨--coincidentally many of the intentionally segregated ¨non-striking¨ personnel--such as Charlie Bond, Flight leader James Cross, MOH James H. Howard, George Burgard, Erik ¨Mortimer¨ Shilling & Frank Schiel, etc. were moved up, by plane to Chungking to patrol that Northern sector and stanch further bombing on ¨the most heavily bombed city in the whole world in WW2¨. The ground crew, medical staff, and ¨most of the mechs [mechanics]¨ also set out overland and were scheduled to arrive in Chungking on the evening of May 26—a duration of 2 days--commenting to Charlie Bond as they arrived, that ¨the road from Kunming to Chungking was worse than the Burma Road¨. So they were not likely present in the noisy nearby downtown Kunming Hostel 1 during that May 21 evening in RT Smith's farewell party and AVG Patch memento distribution. Neither were these early-to-bed pilots on off-duty status until the next day like the other AVGers mentioned in RT Smith'sand Arvid Olson'smemoires. They were mostly the 1st Pursuit Squadron ¨Adam & Eves¨, the group closest to the airfield & billeted in Hostel 2, which was renovated for some weeks after they moved out and ready by June 12, for RT Smith's group to move in, per AVG memoire.

 

And so, this wing of 1st squadron pilots, their ground crews and other logistical AVG staff, definitively did not receive the quickly taken up souvenir patch handouts. Hence, for example, one can see unofficial variations & alternative insignia--including the uniquely rare gabardine & bullion Flying Tigers ¨V¨ breast patches mostly owned by this ¨Chungking AVG Flying Tigers¨ group--that soon followed from custom orders by Bob Neale and others, that were made in Karachi, Rawalpindi or Calcutta in British India, favourite AVG ferry flight stopovers, during the many early June 1942 ferry trips of P-43s for the Chinese Airforce and additional P-40Ns ¨Kittyhawks¨ for the incoming CATF. Please also note that even AVG Pilot Link Laughlin scratched off his name from the notice to Colonel Chennault, as he sided more with the non-striking pilots. I guess we'd call them ¨scabs¨ or the ¨union buster scabs¨ or simply ¨the Chungking scabs¨ today…hahahahah. Incidentally on the side, gabardine, a form of tightly woven worsted wool, was prevalent in India, thanks to the invention of Thomas Burberry, founder of Burberry, in the 1800s and prevalent in follow on breast insignia of the Tigers. Indeed, the variations are better made like what you find in 100% silk Tommy Bahama hula shirts today--hahahaha--or in the smooth & fine silks offered in Hong Kong-based Shanghai Tang stores, for example. Look at some museum samples of Flying Tigers Ace of Aces Bob Neale's China-made AVG patches, and an India-made one from his uniform sold to a fellow collector some 3 years ago.Also below is Flying Tigers Pilot Charlie Bond's unofficial AVG Patch made by the same Jinxing Street tailors in Kunming since he was part of Bon Neale's Chungking squadron.

 

Here are AVG Ace of Aces Bob Neale's custom China-made patch from Jingxing Street, picture of which was taken by fellow forum member Steve or ¨ocsfollowme¨ in his visit to the SDASM in 2014. I shall also render the photo I took from my June 2019 visit of the same patch, but I think now in bad shape from what I surmise are mould penetration under the glass & frame seals as well as from exposure to light...tsk tsk tsk. (I didn't have the heart to complain as yet to such nice managers & friends of the museum who entertained me and family even to their basement work area).

 

Also here is his Custom British India-made AVG shoulder patch on a khaki uniform, sold some years ago by AVG Flying Tigers expert Ron Burkey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[josesharontraders]

Excerpts of my research from tiger zoo forum discussion number 257:

Posted 23 October 2019 - 03:24 AM

The Chungking Group & Other China-made Period AVG Patch Variants. Here are 1) forum moderator Bill Scott's client's AVG patch variant (boo hooo...he didn't remember to call me to offer it some years ago...); 2) fellow collector Rick or ¨walika's¨ AVG patch variant;

 

 

 

 

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[josesharontraders]

Excerpts of my research from tiger zoo forum discussion number 258, showing 1st Squadron Link Laughlin breast Tiger ¨V¨ gabardine badge:

 

Posted 23 October 2019 - 03:51 AM

 

 

and 3) lastly an additional Jingxing Street tailors-made custom, museum-displayed AVG Patch Variant owned by Pilot Charlie Bond, again one of the Flying Tigers personnel assigned to Chungking. Note please, too, how nicely and tightly the silk weave turned out for these insignia lasting longer sewn on a shoulder tunic, although this latter one has deteriorated a bit.

 

Also, here are pictures of gabardine cloth & bullion breast insignia of the Flying Tigers ¨V¨ badge, most likely ordered by AVG finance man George ¨Pappy¨ Paxton staying half his time down in Calcutta, in behalf of mostly the Chungking group or even whichever AVG was still willing to spend on souvenir memorabilia in the last 40 days of the Flying Tigers gig. It should be noted that from the Chungking group of mostly ground crew, mechs and 1st Squadron, Gen. Chennault was able to sign up at least 5 AVG holdover pilots and 10 more willing to extend as a courtesy to their leader for 2 to 3 weeks after July 4, 1942 Flying Tigers gig ending--to help train and familiarise incoming CATF 23rd Fighter group pilots of the USAAF.

 

 

 

 

 

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[manayunkman]

Very interesting thread.