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101st question


warcollect1942
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I was going to say I was under the assumption they were post as well. They dont appear similar to the British made period blackbacks

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I was going to say I was under the assumption they were post as well. They dont appear similar to the British made period blackbacksAlthough

Although made on similar schffli embroidery machines, British made US schiffli SSI have a completely different look and feel apart from the fact they used black and other reverse colour threads.

 

Having a black reverse bobbin thread does not qualify for being WWII or post WWII all it is to do with is production and costs.

 

The original one pictured has all the traits of WWII era as Allan/ MB site points to.

 

MB points out that he has interviewed hundreds(thousands) WWII troopers and has handled thousands of eagles over the years, the ones he shows on his site are what he considers the ones that you encounter the most, there are probably 6 or 7 plus variations of each that he does not list/pictured, if not more!!

 

And then you take into account the 1950's!!

 

Phill

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You are correct with some blackbacks being US made Ive had the 6th Corp 2nd ID and I believe a training patch blackbacks that are all postwar.

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I ruthlessly stole these off of Worthpoint. This is what a Type 7 is. Very distinctive eye.....Also note the OD twill backing. I can understand the confusion between this and the Type 10, especially with the attached tab.

 

-Ski

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So many birdie num nums!!(Peter Sellers)

 

Lets start with the first one posted.

 

Based on MB site,that is a WWII type 7 or as I put it WWII era. Check Bando site for a more detailed breakdown crimped nose etc....

 

Ski posted is 1950's manufacture (c1954 when reactivated back to full Airborne status). This is different to the one Dennis posted, based on the overall look., thread, cut

 

Because a patch has black reverse thread and verticle panel stitching (manufacturing technique based on the Cartoon,stitcher and the puncher which varies from maker) would be, that the punch tapes, that were used 10 years previous would of still been in use well into the 50's and 60's to produce the exact same patch with updated material and thread used.

 

The patches get confusing when we throw in every little variation of eye,beak, reverse thread, as stated Bando only picked out and showed on his website the major variations that he encountered, so there are many more that are very similar. He produced a booklet which had many more variations.

 

I know its all confusing just be happy you have a WWII era patch.

 

Phill

 

 

 

 

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The insignia that started the post looks like what Mark Bando classifies as a Type 7, as previously stated by Allan.

 

Here is some information that can useful for collectors interested in English produced Airborne insignia.

 

First and foremost, the British used Silk thread on insignia.

 

Secondly, the British weave is longer in comparison to US produced insignia.

 

Third, the base material for fully embroidered insignia are not the same as used on US produced insignia.

 

Fourth, all English produced Airborne insignia will have a * SEPARATE * Shoulder Title since the ST were made separately.

 

 

I've have never seen a legit English made 1-piece fully embroidered 101st AB insignia.

 

The 101st insignia were produced on either Felt or Wool, which is found with either Hand embroidery or Machine embroidery using SILK thread.

 

CDub

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CDub makes some great points and has clarified the subject for the group. The main thing is that these Type 7's with OD bobbin thread and black bobbin thread are wartime examples. Type 7 examples have very large lettering in the attached tabs. Post war 101st patches are normally made with separate tabs.

 

One other thing to consider with Bando's numbering system. It was developed by him based on characteristics that he recognized. It can be somewhat difficult for others to pick up on the differences that he states. As another tidbit- many moons ago, I saw an uncut sheet of 101st patches that had both Bando Type 1 and Bando Type 2 patches on them. I believe that both patches were made by the same manufacturer at the exact same time. Bando states that he has seen them in equal numbers which makes perfect sense since they were made in equal numbers.

 

Allan

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Sorry for dragging this along but I really want to understand, so what about Ski's remark about the black base fabric? Was this used during WW2? The type 7 on Bando's site appears to have tan cotton twill base fabric.

 

Rene

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Sorry for dragging this along but I really want to understand, so what about Ski's remark about the black base fabric? Was this used during WW2? The type 7 on Bando's site appears to have tan cotton twill base fabric.

 

Rene

Hi Rene

 

The fabric that ski is talking about is cotton twill (British equivalent is cotton drill) that the SSI were embroidered on.

 

The majority of WWII era authorized SSI (and into the 50's) were khaki and or olive drab(44/45) twill.

 

Black/Dark Blue twill was used by a specific manufacturer for the 101st late WWII.

 

From the 1950's manufacturers made a concerted effort to use the colour of the twill (Dyed) to match the embroidered base of the patch ie black twill 101st, Blue twill 40th ID, Red twill 45th ID etc.... still other manufacturers used khaki cotton twill.

 

Phill

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Hi Rene

 

The fabric that ski is talking about is cotton twill (British equivalent is cotton drill) that the SSI were embroidered on.

 

The majority of WWII era authorized SSI (and into the 50's) were khaki and or olive drab(44/45) twill.

 

Black/Dark Blue twill was used by a specific manufacturer for the 101st late WWII.

 

From the 1950's manufacturers made a concerted effort to use the colour of the twill (Dyed) to match the embroidered base of the patch ie black twill 101st, Blue twill 40th ID, Red twill 45th ID etc.... still other manufacturers used khaki cotton twill.

 

Phill

Thanks, Phill.

 

Rene

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