Curious M-4 Bayonet

[GUDMAR1975]

I don't know enough about bayonets to make sense of this one.

 

I am confident the sheath is a reproduction. I'm not so sure about the blade.

 

The guard is marked with a bursting bomb, M-4 and Imperial. That seems legit enough, but the plastic grips look more recent as if it were an M-6 or M-7. The overal condition is excellent as in new.. perhaps too new.

 

Is this a rebuild or a clever reproduction?

 

If my photos are adequate, I'd appreciate any thoughts you can share.

 

 

 

 

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[SKIPH]

GUDMAR1975- The bayonet itself appears to be a legitimate WW2 Imperial, that had the leather handles taken off, probably due to deterioration. The plastic grips from what I can tell, are the same as those used on M4s that were either made or converted for post WW2 upgrade of M4s. What I'm not sure of are the grind marks on the pommel, doesn't appear it was removed. Plus the pommel pins are not tapped down like later pins ie late WW2 on. In the 1950s Imperial was producing an updated version of the M4 with the wide guard. The blade has the 90* back cut which in my opinion is a good indicator that it was a WW2 conversion. The scabbard is not WW2, and looks like those used by Eickhorn of Germany. SKIP

[Windraider]

Hallo,

 

this M4 comes from the WW2 production of Imperial Knife Co.

 

Later it was overhauled. The latch plate/pommel was removed and replaced. The leather handle was exchanged for these plastic grips.

 

Can you remove the grips to see what marks are on the inside of the grips? So we can say something like when the new handles were made and in which period the overhaul was.

 

The scabbatrd probaly comes from later time for a commericial export contract.

So we can say something like when the new handles were made and in which period the overhaul was.

[Misfit 45]

Hi,

Skip is right. The Imperial M4 is a WWII production, but the grips were replaced sometime in the 1950s. The scabbard is an Eickhorn product from the 1970s or 1980s.

 

Here's where it gets interesting. Although it is not uncommon to find M4s from WWII with plastic grips, there has not been any information that has come out that any US entity did the work of converting WWII M4s. Springfield approved the use of the plastic grips and they were used on the new, second production of M4s. TMN was the first US contract to have plastic grips. Imperial was another company that had plastic grips, but both companies used a wider cross guard and did not use the bomb proof mark.

 

Your bayonet is likely to have been converted by a foreign country like South Korea. The leather grips were removed (or what was left of them). Two holes were drilled in the tang to allow the new grips to be installed. Normally it was not necessary to remove the latch plate assembly during this conversion. Your bayonet had the latch plate assembly removed. Maybe the original was damaged. You can see that the plate was ground with a stone wheel. The way the plate was removed was to grind off the prominent peen of the tang so the latch plate could be slipped off. However, this shortened the tang which did not allow enough metal on the end to peen over to hold the plate in place. So they ground out the "hole" on the replacement latch plate to expose more of the tang, which would then be peened.

 

You have a nice M4 made in WWII and later converted to plastic grips. Thanks for showing it.

Marv

PS. I was still composing my comments when Windraider posted his insights.

[MattS]

Nice bayonet!

[sundance]

Nice M4. Amazing what you can learn reading the comments. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[remman]

Recently there have been several of these conversions showing up on Ebay. So far I've seen examples from Case, Utica, Camillus and Imperial. More than likely other manufacturers will show up. Although not visible on the Imperial shown others seen have the swaged bar retaining the crossguard as in the later M4 and M7 production. This would seem to indicate an arsenal type of work and it wouldn't surprise me if these bayonets were from S. Korea. The scabbards used have been a mix of types.

[GUDMAR1975]

Thank you for all the excellent comments. I removed the grips as suggested.

 

The grips are in two pieces: One contains "11010069 F11 IK" stamped on the inside. The other "11010068 F6 IK". The "IK" is in larger font.

 

I did not see any markings on the metal inside the the grips.

 

Thanks again for the comments. I have learned much for the knowledge you shared.

 

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[thorin6]

I see that the OP's M4 bayonet does not have the metal piece behind the guard to hold it in place. I'm assuming there is a small bead weld to keep it from sliding back, which I understand would not make this a US rebuild. Here is a WW2 Kinfolks that has had a hole drilled in the tang to insert the metal bar, which is then bent to hold the guard in place. Note that the grips do not have mold numbers, and you can also see the pitting on the tang from the wet leather washers. Also shown is the lock plate for comparison.

 

Drilling the hole and adding the metal bar was the way (as I understand) that the later plastic handled M4s were made (Bren-dan, Conetta, TMN).

 

There is also thought that these rebuilds were done in Japan during the Korean War, much like the rubber handled and wooden handles were supposedly done. However, to the best of my knowledge, no documents have been found for what was a regional activity (as opposed to having these rebuilt in the USA).

 

[Misfit 45]

Gudmar1975,

The grips you are showing for your M4 are actually grips for the M7. The 11010068 and 69 are M7 bayonet grip numbers. They had to be shaved down a bit on each end in order to fit. 'The pic below shows the shorter M4 grip and the longer M7 grip.

Marv

[GUDMAR1975]

Copy all. Your photos and observations are much appreciated.

 

Thanks too for the confirmation. I suspected M-7 grips after reading up on Gary Cunningham's Bayonet Points.

 

That would suggest that whoever rebuilt this bayonet must have done it sometime after the M-16 was adopted c. 1966.

 

My bayonet does not have a metal bar behind the guard that is in your bayonet and the ones I saw in Bayonet Points. I'm not sure what that might suggest.

 

The metal behind the grips is coarse and there are spots of surface rust especially on the screw heads but I did not see any pitting or signs that leather grips had once been behind the guard.

 

I suppose we will never know definitively, where and when the M-7 grips were modified and added. But the research and speculation is fascinating.

 

Thanks everyone for adding to my knowledge and the knowledge of other collectors.

 

 

 

 

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[Windraider]

The grips came from IMPERIAL produktion since 1973.

[GUDMAR1975]

Thank you Windtrader. That is very good to know. It helps narrow the time of the rebuild.

 

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[Misfit 45]

The grips came from IMPERIAL produktion since 1973.

 

I did not know that Imperial had special grips. Did they make them themselves, or did they contract them out. What is the mark that lets you know they are Imperial? Does IK stand for Imperial Knife?"

Marv

[Windraider]

Hello

I can not tell you that, but maybe Imperial Knife.

It is only apparent that Imperial uses the same handles in the pieces in the contracts 1973-76 and 1980-85.

Next to the part number always the casting number in a circle (with F) and then the IK in a square.

I have never seen these handles with another manufacturer.

I have quite a lot of M7 examined by all manufacturers and also in my collection. You can identify specific handles for each manufacturer. For some, however, there are overlaps such as GenCut and Ontario. BOC, Conetta and ZFR that have used the same in some areas, but also different ones.

But these handles are specific to Imperial during the mentioned periods.