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1917 L F & C EXTRA KNUCKLE TRENCH KNIFE


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#1 ron norman

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 03:34 PM

HEY , You gents have it all wrong. I pulled mine out and I find the common type (laid across the others in picture) is the rare one because the other 7 have an extra knuckle and the rare one on top of the batch doesn't have that extra knuckle or pyramid .  See 7 to 1 got to tell you something ????????

 

Ron Norman

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  • exkn.jpg


#2 tarheeltim

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 03:56 PM

Nice!



#3 knucvks7

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 05:19 PM

Very nice



#4 sundance

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 05:25 PM

I've got to do it.  Very, very nice.



#5 Red Devil

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 05:29 PM

That's a nice pile there!



#6 usmce4

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 06:21 AM

Impressive!    But......    if the common one is the rare one, the rare one, no matter how rare, becomes the common one.

 

Elementary, don't you think?

Art



#7 TALLYHO

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 07:05 AM

There is speculation that as few as 25-50 of this variation of the LF&C M1917 were initially produced before production was halted. Reason(s) cited were addition cost, the extra knuckle being ineffectual as well as it interfering in use with the scabbard. What ever the case may have been I find it hard to believe that those numbers are correct and in my opinion are quite a bit higher.. I say this based on the numbers that I have seen shown up for sale over the years, those that have passed through my hands of which I kept one for my collection, and those in other collections. Ron I must say you drive my point home! I just don`t feel it is as rare a bird as some might think, but that is just my opinion.



#8 SKIPH

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 02:44 PM

WOW!  SKIP



#9 militariaone

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:50 AM

There is speculation that as few as 25-50 of this variation of the LF&C M1917 were initially produced before production was halted. Reason(s) cited were addition cost, the extra knuckle being ineffectual as well as it interfering in use with the scabbard. What ever the case may have been I find it hard to believe that those numbers are correct and in my opinion are quite a bit higher.. I say this based on the numbers that I have seen shown up for sale over the years, those that have passed through my hands of which I kept one for my collection, and those in other collections. Ron I must say you drive my point home! I just don`t feel it is as rare a bird as some might think, but that is just my opinion.

 

Concur with your assessment wholly.

 

Best,

 

V/r Lance



#10 ron norman

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:17 PM

There is speculation that as few as 25-50 of this variation of the LF&C M1917 were initially produced before production was halted. Reason(s) cited were addition cost, the extra knuckle being ineffectual as well as it interfering in use with the scabbard. What ever the case may have been I find it hard to believe that those numbers are correct and in my opinion are quite a bit higher.. I say this based on the numbers that I have seen shown up for sale over the years, those that have passed through my hands of which I kept one for my collection, and those in other collections. Ron I must say you drive my point home! I just don`t feel it is as rare a bird as some might think, but that is just my opinion.

I put this picture of the rare extra pyramid knives up just to have fun. In reply to the above comment I do NOT agree with you. It took me over 35 years to acquire a total of 8 of these knives (1 is in my sons collection). About 20 years ago I purchased 3 model 1917s Trench knives from a dealer friend in St Petersburg, Florida where he had just gotten all three from an Estate of a retired man who was a superintendent of a Federal Arsenal. All three were different and one was the 1917 L F & C in MINT condition the others were un marked but closer in style to the ACCO type but defiantly different . If you will look at the included photos you will see that on the final thrust to put the knife in the scabbard the extra pyramid one strikes the hand and can hurt you whereas the one without is a smooth surface against the hand. When the samples, or the first test batch were delivered it would only have taken a few uses to determine that a change needed to be made and if you know anything about manufacturing removing the extra pyramid from the guard would have little or no cost.

I do not know the total amount, but what ever 25, 50 or 100 were all that were made and since most all I have seen are in excellent condition including the ones I have seen or owned I do NOT believe they were ever issued for service and therefore not damaged or lost in use. If you consider the facts surrounding these knives, evidence of condition supports that they were probably not issued or if so very few and those that were issued were probably promptly replaced.

 

See photos

 

 

 

  

Attached Images

  • tn 1.jpg
  • tn 2.jpg

Edited by ron norman, 25 January 2019 - 12:19 PM.


#11 usoverlord

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 12:54 PM

I don't get it, who holds a knife by the blade while putting it into the scabbard? What am I missing here?



#12 suwanneetrader

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 01:03 PM

Looks to me like Ron is holding the scabbard, not the blade.  Oh well what do we old guys know anyway :rolleyes: and when it comes right down to it these LF&C knuckle knives are not scarce no matter how many pyramids

Richard



#13 ron norman

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 04:08 PM

I don't get it, who holds a knife by the blade while putting it into the scabbard? What am I missing here?

 

 

The picture shows me holding the scabbard, not the blade,  SORRY

 

 

Ron Norman  



#14 TALLYHO

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 04:32 PM

Ok Ron, you got me with the picture and accompanying words , and I`m guessing as well as a few others that commented. The reasons "cited" I came across while researching this variant. Their words not mine. However, looking out from my microcosm, I believe there are more of these out there than originally thought, or at least I thought. Reckon we respectfully agree to disagree.



#15 schmooser

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 05:36 PM

Ive got an example, only one I have found in 25 years.

#16 ron norman

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 08:34 PM

Ok Ron, you got me with the picture and accompanying words , and I`m guessing as well as a few others that commented. The reasons "cited" I came across while researching this variant. Their words not mine. However, looking out from my microcosm, I believe there are more of these out there than originally thought, or at least I thought. Reckon we respectfully agree to disagree.

To be honest, I have researched records and can NOT find any official record of any rejection or even discussion of the extra pyramid . I think that common sense would tell you that there would be complaints and rejection for something that served no real purpose and caused discomfort with use.

 

For those of you that suggest they are much more common than most would believe, I suggest that those that have one or more to photograph them and show them on the forum.

 

I am suggesting that any one can claim one, but I think to get an honest survey they need to verify their knife with a photo of it

 

We have one person already claiming one and that was in 25 years of collecting. You folks that think it is more common, how many do you have ??? 

 

I can honestly say that I became aware of the variety about 35 to 40 years ago and I have been active in gun shows and collecting for over 65 years I am 80 years old , still very active and continue to attend Gun and Military shows and have published 6 to 8 recent articles in the field and have 5 or 6 pending, so I am not a johnnie come lately.

 

Ron Norman

 

 

 



#17 schmooser

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 08:44 PM

I had posted a picture prior...
http://www.usmilitar...er#entry2282549


4942D831-0E45-42F6-90C7-326D608950E0.jpeg

#18 ron norman

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 09:15 PM

Thank you for helping me make my point.

 

Ron Norman



#19 schmooser

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 10:30 PM

The sheath is a reproduction..original sheaths are hard to find, and expensive. More than I paid for the knife.

#20 militariaone

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 03:06 AM

Greetings Ron,

Without any primary source(s) documentation/information being readily available or at least shared, the numbers (of extra knuckle’s variants) made appears (at least until said documentation reveals itself) to boil down to one’s opinion. Obviously, years of being in the collecting field and market add to the value/weight of said opinion. Yet, however informed, educated, or otherwise, it remains only an opinion.

Ron, I believe we all appreciate your informed opinion and yet, debating its veracity archives little without primary source information to confirm or refute it. Requesting every owner to post their examples seems a bit pointless when the number has exponentially grown from 25 to 50 or even 100.

Granted, if we don’t view at least 25 examples posted there is a victory of sorts for your original “25 and under” opinion but what if at least 25 current owners of said knife are not tracking this thread’s request? Or worse, what if they don’t even own a digital camera like a certain forum’s expert :D 

Like Tallyho, in my “opinion,” there must have been more than 25 made. I base my “over 25 made” opinion on one simple observation. The ready availability of these knives on the collecting market. These knives are not so rare that one does not come up for sale every three months or so (i.e. online & show’s sales). While market availability is not a defining measure in terms of a correlation to the actual numbers manufactured, I do highly doubt the same six-ish knives are being sold over and over again every year. Possible? Yes, however very unlikely (again, an opinion & nothing more).

Ron, thank you for sharing your knives and opinions, they are always most appreciated. And too, I thank you for the opportunity to share my own opinion.

Now, if we could get a collection together and buy a digital camera for a certain someone. ;) 

Best,

V/r Lance



#21 ron norman

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 06:22 AM

Well, I am glad I stirred up the pot here. Thank all of you for your comments about my original post and later posts. AND I really don't know the correct answer. but what is great is that in this country ( at least for the moment ) we all can have our own opinion and express them.   Thanks.

 

Ron Norman



#22 militariaone

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 06:32 AM

Well, I am glad I stirred up the pot here. Thank all of you for your comments about my original post and later posts. AND I really don't know the correct answer. but what is great is that in this country ( at least for the moment ) we all can have our own opinion and express them.   Thanks.

 

Ron Norman

 

Amen to that, Ron.

 

Best,

 

V/r Lance



#23 TALLYHO

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 07:15 AM

Ditto.



#24 HOTROD

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 08:18 AM

I inherited one with the extra pyramid along with an OCL and a run of the mill LFC.

#25 ron norman

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 09:31 AM

I inherited one with the extra pyramid along with an OCL and a run of the mill LFC.

If you collect them your off to a good start. How is the condition of the extra pyramid and did it come to you with a scabbard and also do you know any history of the knife ??

 

Thanks    

 

Ron Norman




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