Jump to content


Photo

WWII KIA 5th MARDIV Uniform - real?


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 WW2 History Buff

WW2 History Buff
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,136
  • 1,510 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania, USA

Posted 11 January 2019 - 06:25 PM

Hi all,

Was hoping to get some second opinions on this uniform before I pull the trigger. I believe it is collector restored due to the hand sewn patches (no ghosting or outlines of previous patches on the interior), and the fact it has CPL stripes instead of PFC - the rank he was KIA at.

That being said I don’t mind it being restored, albeit wrong rank, but wanted opinions on the handwritten inked name and MCSN.

I believe, if it is real, it was probably a blank coat with no patches of his, or he never applied them, or sewed them directly the to the wool leaving no ghosting on the interior of the sleeves.

Thanks for any help!

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#2 dhcoleterracina

dhcoleterracina
  • Members
    • Member ID: 573
  • 1,552 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 11 January 2019 - 06:55 PM

You have a uniform with the info of a KIA hand inked on the inside. Are there other items included with the group?  Dog tags? PH certifcate? 



#3 WW2 History Buff

WW2 History Buff
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,136
  • 1,510 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania, USA

Posted 11 January 2019 - 07:15 PM

Unfortunately, no. Waiting to hear where the uniform was originally acquired. The hand inked name looks period to me, but others have told me they have rarely seen the MCSN let alone “USMCR” inked into coats.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#4 mes

mes
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,978
  • 1,237 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:illinois

Posted 11 January 2019 - 07:55 PM

I've seen quite few marine uniforms and only saw a few with the name and service number written like that. None with USMCR  written under like that. Does mean there aren't any but I would use caution .

Mark


Edited by mes, 11 January 2019 - 07:56 PM.


#5 Brian D

Brian D
  • Members
    • Member ID: 291
  • 3,667 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indiana, USA

Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:52 PM

I've seen quite few marine uniforms and only saw a few with the name and service number written like that. None with USMCR  written under like that. Does mean there aren't any but I would use caution .

Mark

 

I agree with Mark.  I have not seen ANY WWII era USMC uniforms with the USMCR inked in them.  Normally only the name (stenciled most of the time) and the year in the sleeve.  Not to say that this wouldn't have been done, but I would be a bit cautious of this one.  Not to say this one is bad, but have never seen this before.


Edited by Brian D, 11 January 2019 - 08:53 PM.


#6 Blacksmith

Blacksmith
  • Members
    • Member ID: 94,991
  • 1,608 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 12 January 2019 - 03:36 AM

I think suspicions are well-warranted. Enough things are weird on this jacket to steer clear IMO. I don’t like how the divisional patch and rank are applied. Not just the surface stitch, but moreso that they are crooked. Military guys are typically very meticulous about their uniforms, and the fact that the patch and rank are on different angles and offset worries me. And what is written in the sleeve is strange. Sure, hand-written IDs were generally at the discretion of the Marine. That said, I have NEVER seen an MCSN comma-separated. It’s subtle, but that number is not a quantity but an identification, so dividing it into 100s columns is weird. Impossible? Surely not, but screwy.

#7 joeclown

joeclown
  • Members
    • Member ID: 127,885
  • 351 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bucksport Maine

Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:10 AM

maybe I am wrong but isn't the bottom row of ribbons backward well actually upside down



#8 jim46

jim46
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,363
  • 122 posts

Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:19 AM

The presence of a victory ribbon seems unlikely on a uniform of a man who did not survive the war.



#9 joeclown

joeclown
  • Members
    • Member ID: 127,885
  • 351 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bucksport Maine

Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:37 AM

Jim the award of the victory medal states that only has to have served one days service from December 7, 1941 until December 31, 1946, so this person would be entitled in my opinion



#10 Nick

Nick
  • Members
    • Member ID: 421
  • 2,263 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulagi

Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:52 AM

I have not seen any like that before. And I own over 70 named uniforms.and I have several Kia. I would be cautious on this one. Most Kia uniforms usually have more than one name in them because most where reissued. But not all.because I have some Kia with one name. But not like yours.marines do not use the periods like the one you have on the way he wrote usmcr.even the Kia medals use one period. Just my thoughts. But there could be some out there.it is all so funny he has a campaign star. Would it be for bougainville since he has jump wings. Plus the ph ribbon would have been added by someone else. Just my 2 cents.

#11 WW2 History Buff

WW2 History Buff
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,136
  • 1,510 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania, USA

Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:56 AM

I appreciate the comments all. Some good points I hadn’t thought about. As for the shotty sewing and the wwii victory ribbons, like I said I believe this to be collector restored. I have a few WWII USMC KIA uniforms which I restored to reflect all of the awards that’s they deserve and were entitled to which I think is the case here.

Joe, yes the bar is reverse/upside down.

Thanks again, all!! Still not sure if a strange anomaly one off original uniform or a poor attempt at a recreation.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#12 rmoore456

rmoore456
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,034
  • 1,241 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Illinois

Posted 12 January 2019 - 11:14 AM

Jim the award of the victory medal states that only has to have served one days service from December 7, 1941 until December 31, 1946, so this person would be entitled in my opinion

 

Yes, but the medal wasn't approved until July 1945 four months after he was kia.

 

Ray



#13 atb

atb
  • Members
    • Member ID: 943
  • 4,211 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:East Coast

Posted 12 January 2019 - 11:35 AM

The more posts like this I read the more I think restoration = fake. Once a so-called restoration or improvement, as some collectors call it, is done and the uniform is owned by two or more successive collectors, all bets on everything being 100% original are off.

#14 joeclown

joeclown
  • Members
    • Member ID: 127,885
  • 351 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bucksport Maine

Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:29 PM

Ray the WW2 victory was given to people like Dorie Miller and John Basilone who also never survived until the end of the war. All that was required was one days service from 12/7/41 until 12/31/46



#15 12A54

12A54
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,621
  • 1,446 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norfolk, VA

Posted 17 January 2019 - 01:05 PM

Ray the WW2 victory was given to people like Dorie Miller and John Basilone who also never survived until the end of the war. All that was required was one days service from 12/7/41 until 12/31/46


To me, this is completely irrelevant. If youre restoring a uniform, you should probably not include awards that didnt exist when it was being worn by the subject veteran. Posthumous awards have a place, that being in a shadow box. Might just be me, but Im even a bit put off by paintings of KIAs wearing the ribbons of awards conferred after their death - just seems a bit weird.

#16 WW2 History Buff

WW2 History Buff
  • Members
    • Member ID: 5,136
  • 1,510 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania, USA

Posted 17 January 2019 - 09:33 PM

I think we are getting hung up on a detail that doesn’t help determine if the uniform, more specifically, the inked name and MCSN, are authentic.

Me personally, I can see both perspectives with displaying awards such as the WWII Victory ribbon on KIA uniforms. Their ultimate sacrifice helped lead to the end and allied victory. But at the same time it is important to tell their story accurately.

Two ways to look at it, a purist perspective or a tribute perspective. This uniform is quite obvious restored as stated previously - which I don’t have an issue with as long as the markings are legitimate.

Just my thoughts,
Haydn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#17 Blacksmith

Blacksmith
  • Members
    • Member ID: 94,991
  • 1,608 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 18 January 2019 - 12:53 AM

I agree that there are only two categories, but mine are a little different: original or not. To each their own, but this notion of a tribute category is a non-starter for me. Where do you draw the line? Any level of messed-with, and its not original, and I dont think there is room for a commemorative category. I mean, heck, let me just get an unnamed Alpha, and make it up to be Chesty Pullers jacket. Its an original USMC tunic, and he was in the Marines. All the insignia is original. Ker-POW! Im being facetious, but the OP tunic is a pale of the same thing. There is stuff on the jacket, if not the jacket itself, that never belonged to the reference Marine. My point is, how much add-on insignia, ribbons, etc, is too much? I say any.


I think we are getting hung up on a detail that doesnt help determine if the uniform, more specifically, the inked name and MCSN, are authentic.

Me personally, I can see both perspectives with displaying awards such as the WWII Victory ribbon on KIA uniforms. Their ultimate sacrifice helped lead to the end and allied victory. But at the same time it is important to tell their story accurately.

Two ways to look at it, a purist perspective or a tribute perspective. This uniform is quite obvious restored as stated previously - which I dont have an issue with as long as the markings are legitimate.

Just my thoughts,
Haydn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



#18 rmoore456

rmoore456
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,034
  • 1,241 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Illinois

Posted 18 January 2019 - 07:31 AM

Ray the WW2 victory was given to people like Dorie Miller and John Basilone who also never survived until the end of the war. All that was required was one days service from 12/7/41 until 12/31/46

 

True, but they would never had worn them.

 

Ray



#19 joeclown

joeclown
  • Members
    • Member ID: 127,885
  • 351 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bucksport Maine

Posted 18 January 2019 - 10:39 AM

Ray , By your logic then anyone that earns a medal posthumous is in the same boat. Saying they were not alive when the medal was awarded to them. 



#20 rmoore456

rmoore456
  • Members
    • Member ID: 1,034
  • 1,241 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central Illinois

Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:52 AM

Ray , By your logic then anyone that earns a medal posthumous is in the same boat. Saying they were not alive when the medal was awarded to them. 

 

Not sure what you are saying but we are discussing the Victory ribbon on a kia uniform. I have two kia groups. Both have the Purple Heart and one a Bronze Star as sent to the family. Neither has a Victory medal or ribbon. What I am saying is that to be the uniform of a kia as he wore it there would be no Victory ribbon or Purple Heart ribbon for the action he was killed in. If he had a previous PH then yes it would be there.

 

Ray



#21 Kadet

Kadet
  • Members
    • Member ID: 110
  • 4,273 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:02 AM

This is a weird discussion. I have no issue with uniform restorations as long as they are fully disclosed and  accurate to the period in which they were worn. A uniform to a KIA obviously should not include the PH awarded for his death. Likewise, the WWII Victory Medal was, by definition, a post war award (think about it). WWII Victory ribbons were almost always  awarded at separation centers when the men were being discharged. Again, a KIA uniform should not include this ribbon IMO. I tend to think this uniform is completely restored


Edited by Kadet, 19 January 2019 - 10:02 AM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users