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Canteen carried by medic Wayne E. Rapp of D co 507PIR, 82nd ab div, KIA June 22 1944 (Normandy)


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#1 ken88

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 01:22 AM

Here's an interesting find, to say the least... Bought it from Philippe Tanne who runs an antique shop in Normandy. 

 

Some research has lead to an unmistakable identification, in that this canteen was carried by a 507th PIR medic named Wayne E. Rapp. Rapp was in D company (med det), 1st platoon HQ. So far I know he jumped from a C47 nicknamed McGuinness on D-day, tail number 42-24208, which was flown by the 61st Troop Carrier Group. 

 

Unfortunately, Wayne E. Rapp was killed in action on June 22nd 1944 somewhere in France, at just 23 years of age. 

 

If by any chance anyone has any more information about this brave paratrooper, feel free to let me know. I'm trying to find a picture of his but don't know where to start.

 

You'll notice this set consists of a reissued WW1 cover, a reissued 1918 dated cup and a 1943 dated canteen. On the back is painted his name, and several odd markings. I've posted a cartridge belt on here with similar black disks, but so far no one has come up with an explanation as to what it means. Not sure if there's a connection to the markings on the cartridge belt but I already had some really strong suspicions about these having a link to the 82nd airborne division. Or maybe they're some type of QM/reissue marking after all...

 

Needless to say this canteen will always have a very special place in my collection.

 

Thanks,

Ken

 

rappcanteen5.jpg

rappcanteen6.jpg

rappcanteen2.jpg

rappcanteen3.jpgrappcanteen4.jpgrappcanteen7.jpgrappcanteen8.jpg

 

 

The cartridge belt I posted earlier (this one came from England and I've seen an exact same one, also on offer at Tanne's shop, question remains, what are these!?)

belt-garand2.jpg

 



#2 P-59A

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:29 AM

I do not have the same warm fuzzy feelings you have about this. 



#3 ken88

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:16 AM

I do not have the same warm fuzzy feelings you have about this. 

 

How is that? 



#4 BILL THE PATCH

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:37 AM

My observation is the markings seem really fresh looking. Jmho

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#5 Blacksmith

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:34 AM

That was my very first reaction. Totally agree that the name and laundry number look newer.

You have to be REALLY careful buying any items to Airborne, Raider, Ranger, etc.

My observation is the markings seem really fresh looking. Jmho

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#6 Nic

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:47 AM

My observation is the markings seem really fresh looking. Jmho

 

X2  To me, the wear on the cover doesn't match the inked name/laundry number.  Factor in the amount of fakes in connection with Normandy/Paratrooper items and I would personally steer clear of this one.    



#7 ken88

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:51 AM

Yeah, I know, it looks weird. I was assuming the difference in wear could be explained by the cover being a ww1 cover, but now I don't know what to think. 

 

The canteen set was never advertised as airborne or anything and I found the name and history by myself, fortunately also didn't overpay if it turns out to be fantasy. The one thing I am worried about though is that the canteen's cap chain is rusted and that wear definitely doesn't add up. I think the canteen intself could be a filler but was hoping the cover, cup and its markings are at the least authentic. I know the airborne guys used a lot of ww1 gear so I'm not giving up on it just yet.



#8 Blacksmith

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:15 AM

I personally wouldnt worry about whether the canteen / cup in it are original, as the potential value is in the cover. I usually assume canteens have been replaced, unless I have good reason to suspect otherwise.

The cover, on its own merit, doesnt work for me. While I wouldnt be comfortable with it, I dont need to be.

Yeah, I know, it looks weird. I was assuming the difference in wear could be explained by the cover being a ww1 cover, but now I don't know what to think. 
 
The canteen set was never advertised as airborne or anything and I found the name and history by myself, fortunately also didn't overpay if it turns out to be fantasy. The one thing I am worried about though is that the canteen's cap chain is rusted and that wear definitely doesn't add up. I think the canteen intself could be a filler but was hoping the cover, cup and its markings are at the least authentic. I know the airborne guys used a lot of ww1 gear so I'm not giving up on it just yet.



#9 hirsca

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 08:43 AM

I can't clearly read the maker of the cover, but it looks to me to be LUBE PROD CO that made covers in 1940 (I recently found one).  So correct for ww2, but not a reissue WW1 carrier.  But, as always, I yield to the experts.

 

Thanks, Al



#10 ken88

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:11 AM

The cover maker I believe is Lustre. 



#11 hirsca

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:13 AM

The cover maker I believe is Lustre. 

 

OK, thanks.  I can see that now.  They made covers in WW2, most are marked 1942.

 

Thanks again.

 

Al



#12 Gregory

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:20 AM

That was my very first reaction. Totally agree that the name and laundry number look newer.

 

The US WWII canteen covers were washed by laundries on ETO?



#13 hbtcoveralls

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:59 AM

The markings aren't even placed correctly

 

The Army regs for marking items had the laundry number on either the bottom or the back and not the front of the canteen cover

 

The Army normally used a stamp with the laundry number and not sharpie marker

 

Army equipment very very seldom has a name inked on (the USMC was different and they used stamps but no laundry numbers)

 

So all in all, I would return this canteen cover as it's not what it's purporting to be

 

Tom Bowers



#14 ken88

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 12:43 PM

canteencover.jpg

 

Comments definitely don't seem biased because of the term "airborne" in the title, lol. 

 

Even if the markings were fantasy that would still not explain the mysterious markings on the bottom of the back side. 

 

Again the canteen was never advertised as anything "airborne", the research is what led this in the direction of Wayne Rapp. I paid the price of a normal canteen, it's just a canteen but yeah the history attached to it could be special. 


Edited by ken88, 08 January 2019 - 12:46 PM.


#15 yp221

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:40 PM

The cover in question is a WW2 manufactured cover. WW1 covers (and early WW2 covers) had the seam down the middle of the back of the cover. Sometime in 1942 the seam migrated to the side of the cover.

#16 Andrew

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 09:19 AM

I have nothing to add with respect to the canteen cover markings, except to say that they are quite unusual.

 

However, the black markings on the cartridge belt are similar to markings that showed up on all kinds of webbing that used to be stocked by Sabre Sales in Portsmouth. Years ago I visited the shop and picked up a range of British and US web; quite a few pieces had black or red marks like this. I don't know where the stock came from originally, but perhaps a costume/film prop company used these markings to keep track of property, and later sold off their props to Sabre. In any case, it wouldn't surprise me that a dealer in France or the UK would end up with old stock from Sabre Sales, which closed down a few years ago. It is just a guess though.

 

I don't believe the circular markings on the belt have any relationship to the canteen cover.


Edited by Andrew, 10 January 2019 - 09:22 AM.


#17 ArchangelDM

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:50 AM

Im not a fan of those markings, they are a recent addition IMHO.
With regards to the circle, that could have been added to confuse and try to add a little more realism to this piece.
Handling my fair share of marked unis items and helmets etc, the marking on this just look recent additions.
The offcentre number is a nice touch but it just doesnt work IMHO, its just too contrived.

- Dean

#18 Government Issue

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 11:51 PM

Not that my opinion matters over anyone else's here, but figured I'd just point out some things that haven't been brought up. Ken's already stated that he paid what a regular belt / canteen combo would go for so the markings weren't added to "enhance" the piece--especially if the seller didn't advertise it or sell it as such. I've seen and held combat used uniforms and equipment with provenance that look similar to that. It's hard to explain. There's stuff that has been through the ringer and back that have clear defined markings such as this and others that do not. I've had canteens that were Army attributed with laundry numbers on the front. Just because something is made standard doesn't mean it was ubiquitously or meritoriously followed. Ken posted another canteen cover that demonstrates this, and there are a lot more out there. 

 

As for the cannonball tac markings on web gear, I have no clue. That's something the unit may have done, but I can't back that up. it'd be bit odd to be on 507th gear though since I thought it was the 505th that had the Wabash cannonball tac mark. I can say that I've seen 506th marked gear with the ace of spades, 327th gear with the clover on it, and other 101 AB gear but don't know if that is something that was done in other AB divisions. 

 

Also, that canteen cup is interesting in that it has what looks to be a number punched on the handle. It's a WWI canteen so that may be the unit mark on it. There's some info on the forum here about that. Wouldn't be unusual that it got reissued in WWII. 



#19 P-59A

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 02:37 AM

Government, As best I can tell nothing precludes the possibility the name was not added to up the value. IE, If I were a bad faith seller and was selling what would otherwise be a average canteen for the price of an average canteen and I wanted to run the numbers up. Then adding the name and info would be the way to do it. The seller never makes the claim it is any more than an average canteen, but by adding the info, the seller is betting more than one person will run the information and bid it up. In this case that did not happen and the seller only made what ever profit he made from the sale of an average canteen. It cost the seller nothing to mark the canteen and no claim was made by the seller so nothing was lost by the seller, but the potential for great gain was added. Understand the game played?



#20 Cap Camouflage Pattern I

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 10:19 AM

Was this one bought online in a bid? Or in person at the antique store for a fixed price?



#21 P-59A

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 03:55 PM

Was this one bought online in a bid? Or in person at the antique store for a fixed price?

"The canteen set was never advertised as airborne or anything and I found the name and history by myself, fortunately also didn't overpay if it turns out to be fantasy.""Here's an interesting find, to say the least... Bought it from Philippe Tanne who runs an antique shop in Normandy."        The quotes are all the buyer states about the canteen. I have no idea what he paid for it. I have no idea what canteens sell for in Normandy France nor what a store in Normandy France would need to charge in order to make a profit. What the buyer thinks is a fair price for an average canteen is never stated. In the U.S., average canteens are common, very common and do not command high prices. 


Edited by P-59A, 20 January 2019 - 04:05 PM.


#22 Andrew

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 04:51 AM

In the last few years I have visited various shops in Normandy and the prices of original wartime US gear seem rather high by North American standards. In my neck of the woods, a three-piece canteen set can still be had for $15 or $20. From what I have seen in Normandy, it might be at least three or four times that much. What constitutes an 'average' price depends on quite a few variables, especially location. 



#23 Blacksmith

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 05:11 AM

This is definitely a tactic used by some crooked dealers. Juice-up a piece by putting identifying markings to a highly-collectible unit or individual, but dont mention it. Assumption being that people will search on the information, think they found a sleeper, and go after it.

You can concoct whatever story you prefer on a piece - it is still the piece that has to stand on its own. This one does not.

Government, As best I can tell nothing precludes the possibility the name was not added to up the value. IE, If I were a bad faith seller and was selling what would otherwise be a average canteen for the price of an average canteen and I wanted to run the numbers up. Then adding the name and info would be the way to do it. The seller never makes the claim it is any more than an average canteen, but by adding the info, the seller is betting more than one person will run the information and bid it up. In this case that did not happen and the seller only made what ever profit he made from the sale of an average canteen. It cost the seller nothing to mark the canteen and no claim was made by the seller so nothing was lost by the seller, but the potential for great gain was added. Understand the game played?



#24 Simon Lerenfort

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 06:51 AM

Afraid I also can't see anything here that makes me think the laundry mark and name are 75 year old marks. Just looks like an original cover ruined by a modern sharpy.



#25 P-59A

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 09:40 AM

In the last few years I have visited various shops in Normandy and the prices of original wartime US gear seem rather high by North American standards. In my neck of the woods, a three-piece canteen set can still be had for $15 or $20. From what I have seen in Normandy, it might be at least three or four times that much. What constitutes an 'average' price depends on quite a few variables, especially location. 

Agreed, Same in my neck of the woods.




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