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WHAT TO MAKE OF THIS 1892 HELMET DEVICE


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#26 6th.MG.BN

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 09:49 AM

Mike,

Makes sense about the saddle blanket device verses for a hat. Most people would think of the leather EGA's on the saddle blanket but I'm sure they started with different types and a bronze(metal) one would make sense for the period.

I'm sure there was differences in the weights back then. Even a little more solder would and more weight.

Thanks for your insights,

Ken



#27 usmcaviator

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 01:32 PM

Ken,
Here are some photos of a recent piece that I picked up at the MAX show last year. While it is an officer piece of high gilt and silver flash, officer 1892 devices were cut from the exact same dies as enlisted insignia.

 

Hopefully, you can see the slight "curve" I refer to, especially in the southern latitudes. They are slightly angled to conform to the curvature of the globe.  I cant be exactly sure, but it looks like your two pieces have this, which from my decades of study, is correct for period pieces.  Reproductions have latitudes that are perfectly straight across the globe, as if someone was evenly cutting a piece of cake, the lines are perfectly symmetric and parallel.

Again, I cant explain the beak not being cutout on the bronze piece.  But I surmise that given that this is a "harder" material that wont bend, as you said, the die may not have been able to cut the normal depth.  Lastly, sense it is made for a saddle cloth, less snags could have been built into the die design (even though it is highly unlikely a manufacturer would recut new dies for this small point).  I also surmise that these saw very limited use, given the fact that yours shows a wingtip missing (most likely snagged and broken), these are rarely seen, and the Corps eventually went to leather insignia, supports this summation.

Thanks for posting, this thread opens a new chapter on an insignia that is one of my personal favorites and one that few people have any expertise due to the age and scarcity.

 

S/F,

Mike

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#28 usmcaviator

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 01:35 PM

Ken,

Also.....shots of the correct dual prong fasteners found on the earliest versions of the 1892 helmet devices.  This one is attributed to a Marine starting service around 1894, I believe (going off memory).  I think you can see the similarities with your bronze insignia.

 

S/F, 

 

Mike

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Edited by usmcaviator, 25 January 2019 - 01:47 PM.


#29 6th.MG.BN

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 02:00 PM

Mike,

 That is a beautiful  piece! I see why these are one of your favs! There are very impressive indeed.

Thanks for sharing it and the information to go along with it.

Ken



#30 Brig

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 02:44 PM

There is a surprising amount of variety on this pattern emblem for how small the Corps was...and tht further adds to the difficulty when dealing with these, since as it's been pointed out they can be quite scarce to find even a single example for one's collection.

#31 6th.MG.BN

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 03:23 AM

There is a surprising amount of variety on this pattern emblem for how small the Corps was...and tht further adds to the difficulty when dealing with these, since as it's been pointed out they can be quite scarce to find even a single example for one's collection.

Brig,

 You are right there is some variety to the construction of these scarce birds. As usmcaviator pointed out, we are comparing two or three different purpose EGA's under the P-1892 heading.

First the enlisted version that is the most often shown and accepted.

Second the officers version which you very rarely see and as shown by Mike with the "three prong" reverse.

Third early saddle blanket pattern, with four prong reverse. I have owned this example for around eleven years or so and I never could verify that it was an early, short lived bronze saddle blanket one. So I never really knew it's true identity for sure. Like Mike pointed out these would been used before the Corps switched to the leather one that was sewn on and shown in the books. 

I'm sure variations exist between the three styles. You do see the enlisted version with prongs added.

Another example of the power of the forum to bring new examples to light!

Ken



#32 Brig

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 04:38 AM

Definitely exists variation...I have 4 different variants of the enlisted one, and I know of at least just as many more. You could build a rare nice (but costly!) Collection around this pattern emblem alone

#33 Dirk

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 07:34 AM

This has proven to be a fantastic thread...a lot of great collecting knowledge on display on a topic that few really have any mastery of. This is why I really appreciate the Forum.

Edited by Dirk, 26 January 2019 - 07:35 AM.


#34 kanemono

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 07:56 AM

Here is the 1892 enlisted EGA on the saddle blanket of Colonel Presley M. Rixey Jr., commanding officer of the American Legation Guard, Peiping China  in the 1930's.

Dick

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Edited by kanemono, 26 January 2019 - 07:59 AM.


#35 Brig

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 08:51 AM

Here is the 1892 enlisted EGA on the saddle blanket of Colonel Presley M. Rixey Jr., commanding officer of the American Legation Guard, Peiping China  in the 1930's.

Dick

Those look like the leather emblems



#36 6th.MG.BN

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 10:03 AM

I think Brig is right it does look like the leather ega and not the metal one. 

Ken



#37 Brig

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 11:41 AM

From an old topic posted by Eric: http://www.usmilitar...hl=+usmc +horse

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Edited by Brig, 26 January 2019 - 11:47 AM.


#38 kanemono

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 12:41 PM

I also believe that Brig is correct.

Dick



#39 warguy

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 01:02 PM

But another example of these in use......I offer half joking. Trench art stein made from shell casing with original 1892 helmet device on front

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#40 Brig

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 01:22 PM

I've seen a couple of trench art steins with this emblem over the years



#41 b_hinch

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 06:11 PM

Let me wipe the drool from my mouth looking at this thread! Great birds, and an interesting topic! I have the twin brother of Warguy's stein and it is one of my favorite pieces.



#42 6th.MG.BN

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 12:36 PM

From an old topic posted by Eric: http://www.usmilitar...hl=+usmc +horse

 

I always thought those USMC saddle blankets were a great piece of field gear and a great way to dress up a horse!

There probably is a lot of information and variants we will never know about due to the small numbers produced.

Thanks to all who chimed in on this thread.

Ken




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