B17 Bomber crew flightsuit?

[AZPhil]

Hello Gent's,

I want to put together a flight suit setup to recreate what my Buddy Phil wore when he was shot down on April 13th 1944.

Phil told me he didn't wear the leather outfits. He wore the shiny green ones. Phil was attached to the 8thAF 384th BG 545th BG. as a waist gunner.

 

So for that time frame, what type of pants should I be looking at? A-9,A-10 or A11?

With what pants selected, I'll go for the jacket that would best match that.

 

Semper Fi

Phil

[Stony]

Could be the F-3 heated flight suit.

[AZPhil]

Well I guess that is another possibility. Would that have been worn in April 1944

 

 

Semper Fi

Phil

[AZPhil]

Looking at the F3 that was worn under the garments I am asking about. So something to look for when I get into the finer details of this setup. But I still need some help on which one would be correct for that time. I have checked a Flight gear site and also my Gear Up book for a reference but I'm just not sure which one would be the right one to pursue.

 

They flew in the B17 from August 1943 till April 13th 1944

 

Semper Fi

Phil

[5thwingmarty]

With the heated suits, they were not worn as the top layer. A flight engineer I know wore his regular uniform, with an F-3 suit over that and a one-piece flight suit over that. I think the crew members in the backs of the planes tended to wear the heavier separate pants and jackets as the top layers over the electric suits.

[AZPhil]

After some research, it seems that the correct combo for that time frame would be the B-10 jacket with corresponding A-9 pants. 8th Air Force got these in February of 1944

So if anybody else come looking, There Ya Go!

 

Semper Fi

Phil

[38Driver]

This is your guy. b-10 over A-9. F-3 suit underneath. a-6 boots. F-2 gloves, A-11 helmet, B-8 goggles A-14 mask

[AZPhil]

YES SIR!!! That's my guy! Well that is what I want to put together. Awesome display You have there. I Love It!!!

I was asking on your other thread about B-10's. I see a LOT of reproductions. Is there a source for information about identifying the fake from the real?

 

Semper Fi

Phil

[38Driver]

I don't know of any one source on ID'ing B-10s. Some of the Repros have names of wartime production companies in them so if it's worn at all it might sneak past someone. Feel free to ask if you have one in mind. At this point I think myself and a few others here could spot the repro's fairly fast.

[AZPhil]

When I first started looking, I saw low prices and thought WOW I'll be able to put this together at a relatively inexpensive price.

Then I saw the ones for 1K and over and thought OHHHHH those must be the real ones! Then looked at there tags and the cheaper ones and the tag matched. That is when I knew I would need help. I do greatly appreciate the offer for help.

 

 

Here is a colorized pic of the Geezil crew when they flew in the Damned Yankee II in March of '44.

 

Phil is the center bottom row. My uncle Joe is to his right.

Phil told me he wore this the day they were shot down. He said he put on long johns,(thermal underwear) then the blue heated suit, his uniform then what he referred to as looking like mechanic coveralls. That is what he is wearing in this pic. I also asked about his flight helmet. I asked if it was the leather ones ,he said no the tan cloth one with the big black ears. So I think the AN H 15 with goggles, which I have and he mentioned the O2 mask and throat mic. So I picked up a A14 and a throat mic.

 

Thanks Again!

Semper Fi

Phil

[38Driver]

The Blue Bunny heated suit is pricey and somewhat hard to find. I've kept my focus to mid-44 on so it's F-3 suit and the B-10/A-9 combo I've stuck to. The overalls he's describing are probably an A-4 flight suit or an AN-S-31 Flight suit which are fairly easy to find on eBay.

 

I'd suggest visiting this site: http://www.303rdbg.com/uniforms-gear.html

 

It's the 303rd BG and it includes the collection of flight gear of Ed Nored. His collection is/was amazing. Sadly he lost it all in the California fires. But the photo collection and the descriptions should give you all kinds of info on what you are looking for.

[phantomfixer]

Is this Uncle Joe? to me it looks like he is wearing the blue bunny suit, at least for this photo op, based on the square image on the cuff... and collar

The guy in the front row middle looks to be wearing coveralls over a blue bunny suit.

[AZPhil]

No that not Joe, Joe is wearing the life preserver.That is T/Sgt Walter Stuhl, Flight Engineer/top turret gunner. KIA when they were shot down April 13th'44. 4 men were KIA that day. CP,TT Radio and Ball turret,

My avatar is the original pic that was given to me by Phil. Its B/W and the person who did the colorization might not have caught the bunny suit.on Stuhl.

Great eye!!!!

I have used the 303 site for reference . I am trying for what Phil said he wore. Like mentioned I also have GEAR UP as my reference but some said that is not a rock solid reference.'

Thank you for the ID on flight suit.

Semper Fi

Phil

[AZPhil]

I tried to use the edit function on the statement I made above ,but that must disappears after a certain time.

 

"He said he put on long johns,(thermal underwear) then the blue heated suit, his uniform then what he referred to as looking like mechanic coveralls".

 

I reread my notes on what Phil's sequence of dressing that day and it was Thermals, Uniform , Blue bunny suit then coveralls.

 

So phantomfixer's observation are correct that would be the blue bunny suit under Phil's coveralls.

 

I might have to get this pic touched up to represent the correct colors being worn.

 

This is really some great info.

 

Thanks again.

Semper Fi

Phil

[pararaftanr2]

Phil,

It was not at all uncommon for the one-piece HBT suit (aka "mechanic's coveralls") to be worn as an alternative to the issue flying suit as an outer layer over an electric suit and other clothing. I would hazard to guess that we are seeing just that in the crew photo you have of him. Note the notched lapels, which would not be found on the A-4 or AN-S-31 flight suits, but is a feature of the HBT suits.

Regards, Paul

[pararaftanr2]

A quick Internet search found this example of an HBT suit being worn by the right waist gunner (standing, far right) of a B-17G of the 336th BS, circa March 1944. http://www.95thbg-horham.com/page402.html

[phantomfixer]

I had the wrong airman...after rereading the post...Paul is correct about Phil's outer garmet being HBT coveralls...

Srry for the confusion

[AZPhil]

Thank You Gent's

Great info that I can now use to search for this set up.

I really do appreciate your help.

 

Thanks Again

Semper Fi

Phil

[Ant1942]

Interesting thread and definitely helpful as it shows that the 1 piece HBTs were used as alternatives to the flying suit from time to time( most reenactors would disagree)

[dmar836]

Well, "alternative to the flying suit" would be a strong term. It's not as if all flight crew were issued one of each suit, including an HBT one, and they got to choose what to wear - not the case. When one is trying to represent the typical aircrew dress the HBT coveralls would certainly be the exception to the rule rather than an alternative. You see HBTs all the time on ground crew but not on airmen that often. It would be like reenacting a ground crewman and wearing the A-4 or AN-S-31 rather than HBT or wearing an A-2 just because it occasionally happened.

I do agree some reenactors are "experts" too much but considering many are 250lb 55yr old gunners wearing size 48 -50 suits, it is surprising they would argue about such details.

Dave

[Ant1942]

Is there any pictures of officers wearing the HBTs? It’s interesting because I reenact with a buddy who does air corps but he has the flying suit and the “ standard gear” you can say. I have the 1 piece and while it isn’t common, I was wondering if it’s appropriate to wear based off photographic evidence shown here.

[phantomfixer]

There is a hbt flight suit..it has the AAF winged prop stenciled on the back...Used mainly by cadet aviators,AAF. I had one years ago, and have come across them from time to time..

I have no photographic proof of the HBT suit with the AAF winged prop...but there are many pics of cadets wearing HBT coveralls...and would connect the dots and say some of those suits had the large winged prop on the back...now did they turn in the suits upon completion of cadet training..most likely..but a few would have slipped through....

The exemption..as Dave stated...

[Scarecrow]

There is a hbt flight suit..it has the AAF winged prop stenciled on the back...Used mainly by cadet aviators,AAF. I had one years ago, and have come across them from time to time..

I have no photographic proof of the HBT suit with the AAF winged prop...but there are many pics of cadets wearing HBT coveralls...and would connect the dots and say some of those suits had the large winged prop on the back...now did they turn in the suits upon completion of cadet training..most likely..but a few would have slipped through....

The exemption..as Dave stated...

 

Phantomfixer, I believe the hbt flight suit you are referring to is the Type B-1.

[38Driver]

9th AF recce 51 driver in the HBT suit

[pararaftanr2]

Well, "alternative to the flying suit" would be a strong term. It's not as if all flight crew were issued one of each suit, including an HBT one, and they got to choose what to wear - not the case. When one is trying to represent the typical aircrew dress the HBT coveralls would certainly be the exception to the rule rather than an alternative. You see HBTs all the time on ground crew but not on airmen that often. It would be like reenacting a ground crewman and wearing the A-4 or AN-S-31 rather than HBT or wearing an A-2 just because it occasionally happened.

I do agree some reenactors are "experts" too much but considering many are 250lb 55yr old gunners wearing size 48 -50 suits, it is surprising they would argue about such details.

Dave

My use of the word "alternative" was not really a "strong term", rather a statement of fact that is very easily confirmed with a little bit of research, but generally overlooked by the casual observer. Bearing in mind that the men we are talking about were NCOs in the U.S. Army, an HBT suit is not something that would have been in short supply and was not limited in issue only to mechanics or tank crews. The OP was not trying to represent "the typical aircrew dress" for reenacting, he was trying to identify what a specific individual in his original vintage photograph was wearing. No question the A-4 and AN-S-31 family of suits were widely issued and used by bomber crews, but I would disagree that the aircrewmen did not "get to choose what to wear". Other than the mandatory survival gear, they certainly did. Photos of bomber crews in theater, either before, or after, a mission provide ample proof of the many combinations of flight clothing that were employed. Below is a B-24 crew from the 458th Group, 753rd Squadron in mid-to-late 1944. Of the ten men shown, their outer layer of clothing includes at least six F2 electric suits, one B-10 jacket and two HBT suits (note the notched lapels and front hip pockets with flaps on the men standing at far left and far right). I think if you look for the distinctive characteristics of the HBT suit, compared to the conventional flight suits, when viewing bomber crew photos, you'll be surprised at how many you will see in use.

 

As an aside, in the PTO, HBT suits were widely issued to Navy and Marine aviators as a true "alternative" flight suit, but that's a subject for another thread and another day.

 

By the way, thanks for that great photo 38Driver!

 

Regards, Paul