This document officially does not exist: Phoenix Program?

[DaddyDog]

Comments asked on this because I have never seen one before. This document officially does not exist.

 

[USARV72]

Rare as chicken lips. You have it?Know about Phoenix?

[Jumpin Jack]

To say the least! Most interesting. Jack

[patches]

I'll be out in the cold, they'll burn my jacket and say they never heard of me

[dpast32]

What an interesting document !! We know that although that

Phoenix was quite successful in it's pro!sry aims, it soon became an embarrassment & therefore a liability to the MACV efforts in RVN. That's probably why this document was presented on an restricted basis. IIRC, the CIA's Bill Colby ran a good portion of the Program. VERY NICE FIND !!!

 

Best, dpast32

[vintageproductions]

Maybe it's just me but looks like a fantasy piece sold by companies like Lancer Militaria. Same as the SOG id cards and the MACV Get Out Of Jail free cards.

[USARV72]

Reason I asked if he had item, closer inspection would tell. Phoenix would have “ won the war” if things had been different.

[DaddyDog]

Reason I asked if he had item, closer inspection would tell. Phoenix would have won the war if things had been different.

Sorry for reply delay, had to wait till lunch to see this. I offered to buy it along with the veterans uniforms but was told it was not for sale. Just wondering if others were out there somewhere.

[manayunkman]

I agree with Bob.

 

Phoenix members I've talked to all agree that there was no insignia for the program and their paperwork reflected this as well.

 

Their documents never mention Phoenix but do mention that they had an advisory roll.

[manayunkman]

Phoenix should be put in the title of the thread to get more attention.

[gwb123]

The "THIS DOCUMENT DOES NOT OFFICIALLY EXIST" stamp seem hokey and unnecessary. Conceivably, it could have been added as a bit of GI Humor, but it just does not ring true. And what soldier wants to mess up a training certificate with something like that.

 

I don't like the Phoenix rubber stamp at the bottom either. If you are going to the trouble of printing certificates, why not print that logo as well.

 

And the last item is the font. That does not look correct for the period. It has a strong resemblance to Arial, which was not released until 1982. (The "t" with the straight bottom is a minor difference).

[vintageproductions]

I agree with Bob.

 

Phoenix members I've talked to all agree that there was no insignia for the program and their paperwork reflected this as well.

 

Their documents never mention Phoenix but do mention that they had an advisory roll.

 

Not true, there is a lot of different insignia for the Phoenix program.

 

 

Also, look at the way the dates were done, not military style at all.

[manayunkman]

Phoenix program members I knew said they had no insignia, never knew of it and even if they did they wouldn't have wanted it.

 

They didn't want anyone to know who they were.

[vintageproductions]

Sounds like too many " If I tell you I will have to kill you" type stories.

 

The Phoenix program had many different branches and many different pieces of insignia, patches, di's, etc.

[manayunkman]

Bob,

 

I respect your knowledge.

 

My info mostly comes from Col Herrington not exactly someone who plays games and who was a very successful program member.

[gwb123]

Bob,

 

I respect your knowledge.

 

My info mostly comes from Col Herrington not exactly someone who plays games and who was a very successful program member.

 

Veterans tend to make global and sweeping statements based on what they saw, where they were at, and when they were there.

 

In the Vietnam era in particular, things could change rapidly as people came and went in what were typically one or (rarely) two year rotations.

 

Your source is probably quite accurate in relaying what he saw when he was there. But as Bob noted, over time there were multiple detachments, and very likely things changed depending where you went and when.

[vintageproductions]

I had Ham Salley in the shop awhile back and he was FOB 1 commander. He commented that they never wore the SOG shell bursts when he was there. I showed him some of Jason Hardy's books with all the photos of SOG guys wearing pocket patches in numerous photos. I said to him that maybe while he was there they may not have worn the insignia but in later tours it became common for the guys to wear the pocket patches.

[DaddyDog]

Just for reference, here are some of the uniform items offered during the sale. Some had pocket patches.

https://www.estatesales.net/TX/Houston/77078/2071206

 

[vintageproductions]

I would run away fast from the vast majority of items listed in that sale. All the incountry patches listed in the photo are fake, and the rest that are real are very common. The uniform pocket patches make very little sense.

[gwb123]

It's amazing what we have gathered on this Forum over the years. Everybody please take a look a this thread:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/122559-phoenix-program/?hl=%2Bphoenix+%2Bprogram

[vintageproductions]

and that is what I would expect a Phoenix program citation to look like.