MARINE USED M3 KNIFE IN M6 SCABBARD?

[6th.MG.BN]

My first reaction to the name stenciled on the back is more US Navy than USMC, which I'm going to strongly lean towards, but suppose it could be either. As an observation, Marine marked equipment is typically the user initials first then last name and opposite of the Navy, last name/initials but this is just a basic rule of thumb and not always the truth. Naval supplies depots did at one point or another maintain quite a variety of edged implements of knives and machetes. The M3 trench knife with M6 scabbard was maintained by Naval supply depots until the introduction of the Mark 2, when the M3 was dropped so was the M-1910 bolo but they did retain the M-1917 in their inventory. The M3 was an expedient to supply shore based personnel.

 

Here is a picture representing those knives and machetes maintained at Naval Supply Depots.

Note the Mark 1 to the left of the M3. The 5-inch hunting was a standard well before the adoption of the 7-inch fighting knife Mark 2, only later to be re-desiganted as the Mark1

 

IMG_4201c.jpg

Dustin,

I noticed the initial after the name also and also thought it might be Navy and not Marine? Handling many knives over the years I have seen some nice knives, some with a stenciled name along with ports marked on the scabbard that came out of a naval estate.

Ken.

[6th.MG.BN]

What is the name on the scabbard? I cant quite decipher it. It looks to be a highly uncommon last name and would significantly reduce the search for the former owner.

 

Dustin,

Unfortunately, the name is hard to make out.

I learned of trick some years ago on the old BCN(Bayonet Collectors Network), whereas you can use a camcorder with Infrared lights to view illegible markings on cloth, canvas goods and leather to see them clearer. After just moving into a new house I will try this, after I locate my camcorder.

Also, some great pics of Navy personal wearing M3's!

Thanks for sharing,

Ken

[6th.MG.BN]

Please note in the pics the sheaths used by the USN people are brown.

Adding a bit more to what I stated earlier, (about it being USMC [or USN] Vietnam era)......... around 1966 all USMC (and I'm guessing USN) leather sheaths were supposed to be dyed black. The name not being in proper format adds even more credence to what I suggested: US Army surplus purchase dyed black for Vietnam era use.

 

Art

Art,

Anything is possible. I don't think I ever saw a m3 being used in VN, but I'm sure some were.

It is also possible that it was WWII Navy issue to recon unit for night use? Who-knows.

The key might be in finding out the name on the scabbard.

Ken

[dustin]

Skiph, yeah I'm not well versed on the inner workings of production to have that conversation. All I know is that there was a requirement for a Forward Area fighting knife and that the M3 knife helped fill the void though only for a short time. Though correct those Naval persons wearing the M3 were working with Army operations how they got the knives is anyone's guess.

If the name gets deciphered itll be interesting to see what turns up.

[6th.MG.BN]

I was able to find my camcorder. It is amazing how in-fared lighting helps one make out letters.

The name is unique and looks like "Ouldenschum H.E.", it is very possible I might have used a wrong letter but it's very close.

Ken

[SKIPH]

Ken- That is a very cool technique using the camcorder. I know uniform, and patch guys like to use a black light. This is the first time I've heard of a camcorder. Thanks! SKIP

[6th.MG.BN]

Skiph,

It works far better than a black light. Great on faint ink stampings on canvas also.

Ken

[sactroop]

Yes, camcorders, certain digital camera's, and even some baby monitor camera's can be very effective in clearing up old ink stamps.

[remman]

Guldenschuh is a searchable surname if anyone cares to try.

[sactroop]

This might just be dumb luck, or a dead end.

https://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/wwii/HonorList/?srch=Guldenschuh&l=g&f=first&o=asc

 

[DRE66]

I was wondering how common was it for a WWII US Marine to carry a blade marked M3 knife in a M6 leather scabbard? And does anyone have any pictures to show that?

About eight years ago I purchased around a dozen M3 knives all in M6 leather scabbards. I sold off all except one. The one I keep wasn't the nicest and was probably the one showing the most use.

The first thing I noticed was it had been dyed black(front only), and when I turned it over it had a stenciled name on it, like you always find on Marine items. First thing I thought was Marine Raider or Para-Marine, obviously.

Eight years later while going through some boxes I came upon it and was wondering how many pictures are there out there showing Marines carrying M3 knives?

The name on the reverse of the scabbard is hard to make out. I also realize it might not be a marine's name at all. There is what looks like initials stamped on the pommel.

Regards,

Ken

 

This is the only picture I can think of showing a US Marine with an M3, its a pic of Johnny Popham (USMC) on Saipan:

[remman]

Using sactroop's link. Guldenschuh, Henry E., PFC, USMCR, wounded. Resident of Rochester, NY

[Frank Trzaska]

The USMC adopted the 1219C2 prior to the Army adopting the M3. The Army Ordnance Board discussed adopting the Marine knife in their meetings but choose the M3 due to the knife taking less operations to manufacture, the steel being used was a basic dimension that was available in large lots and did not take any special tooling so could begin production immediately in several cutleries at once among other reasons. A Marine Officer was on the Army Ordnance Board and brought the 1219C2 to a sort of show and tell but the Army favored the M3.

 

MH Cole shows a photo of a Marine wearing an M3 on Peleliu on page 188 in Book IV. It could be a Navy Corpsman also.

 

The Navy did have M3's in inventory and issued them on several occasions. One high profile example would be at the Naval Scouts and Raiders training facility in Florida hand to hand combat was taught with the M3 and the knives were issued to the men.

 

Great discussion just thought I would through this into the mix.

[6th.MG.BN]

This might just be dumb luck, or a dead end.

https://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/wwii/HonorList/?srch=Guldenschuh&l=g&f=first&o=asc

 

 

Thanks for the link,

Ken

[6th.MG.BN]

 

This is the only picture I can think of showing a US Marine with an M3, its a pic of Johnny Popham (USMC) on Saipan:

 

Dre66,

I have to say that may be the only pictures of a Marine carrying a m3 that I remember seeing.

I'm sure there are more out there somewhere.

Thanks for sharing,

Ken

[6th.MG.BN]

Using sactroop's link. Guldenschuh, Henry E., PFC, USMCR, wounded. Resident of Rochester, NY

 

Remman,

Interesting results on your search and as unique as the name is I'm betting this is him!

While I'm from upstate NY the person I purchased this knife from doesn't live to far from me, We both used to set up at the Syracuse, NY gun show and the knife may have been brought into that show?

Thank you for your research on this Marine,

Ken

[6th.MG.BN]

The USMC adopted the 1219C2 prior to the Army adopting the M3. The Army Ordnance Board discussed adopting the Marine knife in their meetings but choose the M3 due to the knife taking less operations to manufacture, the steel being used was a basic dimension that was available in large lots and did not take any special tooling so could begin production immediately in several cutleries at once among other reasons. A Marine Officer was on the Army Ordnance Board and brought the 1219C2 to a sort of show and tell but the Army favored the M3.

 

MH Cole shows a photo of a Marine wearing an M3 on Peleliu on page 188 in Book IV. It could be a Navy Corpsman also.

 

The Navy did have M3's in inventory and issued them on several occasions. One high profile example would be at the Naval Scouts and Raiders training facility in Florida hand to hand combat was taught with the M3 and the knives were issued to the men.

 

Great discussion just thought I would through this into the mix.

 

Frank,

Thanks for the history on the two knives and branches they ended up in.

I understand that the Navy had m3's in inventory and therefor it makes sense that the Corpsman would have access to them. You would think the MK2 would be a better fit for a Corpsman as the m3 fits more of a "stabbing" profile, straight blade knife.

I don't remember seeing that picture in Cole's book.

I'm still curious to see if any further research on the name on the scabbard helps explain the black dyed leather front of the scabbard.

Thanks for adding to this discussion,

Ken

 

[SKIPH]

Thanks for the input Frank! SKIP

[dustin]

I think the name is actually Guldenschuh, an H instead of an M for the last letter. In a cursory search there was a Henry Edmond (H.E.) Guldenschuh that served with Company G, 3rd Battalion, 26th Marines, 5th Marine Division. One listing had a Guldenschuh that served in the USMC both in WWII and Korea, possibly wounded in action 14 March 1945. might all be the same guy.

Someone with an Ancestry account could dig up more, there, they have muster roles and all that jazz. Great resource for USMC stuff.

I came up zilcho looking the Navy route for that name so I retract my initial gut sense and now lean USMC. Has to be the same guy above because that name is so unusual and didn't even come up in the Navy muster roles.

I wouldn't beat your head up over the blackened sheath too much, not unusual to have sheaths dark like that especially if they were used. Leather deteriorated fast in the Pacific, oiling or dubbing was used a protective agent and will darken the leather then add the grime effect.

The cool thing here is that you could have an Iwo Jima veteran M3

[dustin]

Some what in theme, I find this image interesting. A corpsman I believe to be on Okinawa carries a Army Ord M4 bayonet.

 

[dustin]

He must had went shirtless a lot and to make sure everyone knew is medical deapartment he applied something a little more permanent.

 

 

 

[6th.MG.BN]

I think the name is actually Guldenschuh, an H instead of an M for the last letter. In a cursory search there was a Henry Edmond (H.E.) Guldenschuh that served with Company G, 3rd Battalion, 26th Marines, 5th Marine Division. One listing had a Guldenschuh that served in the USMC both in WWII and Korea, possibly wounded in action 14 March 1945. might all be the same guy.

Someone with an Ancestry account could dig up more, there, they have muster roles and all that jazz. Great resource for USMC stuff.

I came up zilcho looking the Navy route for that name so I retract my initial gut sense and now lean USMC. Has to be the same guy above because that name is so unusual and didn't even come up in the Navy muster roles.

I wouldn't beat your head up over the blackened sheath too much, not unusual to have sheaths dark like that especially if they were used. Leather deteriorated fast in the Pacific, oiling or dubbing was used a protective agent and will darken the leather then add the grime effect.

The cool thing here is that you could have an Iwo Jima veteran M3

 

Dustin,

Remman came to that same conclusion as to the name.

It is exciting to have an Iwo Jima veterans named knife, a US Marines M3 knife to boot!

I hope someone with an Ancestry account could find out some more history on the Marine?

I also like that Okinawa corpsman picture with the m4.

Thanks for posting it.

Ken

[dustin]

Post your request for assistance in the Individual Research forum, there are many there that will help dig a little for you.

[sactroop]

Just a warning from my own personal experience when it comes to these genealogy sites. The information isn't any better than the source who provided the information. It certainly can be a good place to start but I've learned that it's best to seek another source for confirming what's printed.

My own posted family tree info provide on one for my father's side of his family isn't worth the space it takes up.

[6th.MG.BN]

Just a warning from my own personal experience when it comes to these genealogy sites. The information isn't any better than the source who provided the information. It certainly can be a good place to start but I've learned that it's best to seek another source for confirming what's printed.

My own posted family tree info provide on one for my father's side of his family isn't worth the space it takes up.

 

Sactroop,

Good point. I was able to confirm the identity with the help of some forum members. Here is the topic link http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/320007-help-with-wwii-marine-who-served-on-iwo-jima/

Again I wish to thank all who helped determine the identity of the owner of this knife.

Regards,

Ken