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WWI officer tunic - cuff braid


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#1 Fratlanta

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 05:07 PM

Can you think of a reason why a wwi officer jacket would not have cuff braids?
From what i have read no, but i just would like to be sure.
Ill try to post pictures later, but the uniform i bought recently has the regular US officer pins on the collar and no holes to accomodate a collar disk. However no cuff braids!

Thanks

#2 Wake1941

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:55 PM

Could be ROTC, Ive seen different ROTC/ Schools that had the high collars without holes for collar disk

#3 Fratlanta

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:11 PM

Not sure because Jacket has discharge and oversea stripes + infantry patch + buckeye division patch

#4 Wake1941

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:16 PM

Hmm interesting Id like to see pics, but since some were private purchase who knows

#5 Dave

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 05:08 AM

I just commented on a jacket similar to this on one of the facebook forums (save it was a 91st Division piece). It also was an enlisted jacket but had officer "US" devices. From what I've seen over the years is that some vets (or their families) replaced the collar disks with US devices for reasons unknown. It doesn't make it an officer uniform...it just makes it an enlisted jacket that has incorrect collar devices. Depending on how you feel about the jacket and what you plan on doing with it, it's up to you if you want to replace the brass with the appropriate disks or just leave it historically "as is". 

 

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#6 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 08:02 AM

SAM_4952a.jpg



#7 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 08:03 AM

SAM_4955a.jpg



#8 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 08:03 AM

SAM_4956a.jpg



#9 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 08:04 AM

SAM_4957a.jpg



#10 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 08:06 AM

SAM_4954a.jpg



#11 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 08:08 AM

SAM_4958a.jpg



#12 Dave

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 09:00 AM

Yep...a private purchase enlisted uniform with incorrect collar devices.

#13 cwnorma

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 09:03 AM

Based on OPs description I thought he might be describing a Field Clerk's coat.  Field Clerks eventually became warrant officers but during the war sometimes wore officers uniforms without cuff braid...

 

Then I saw the Infantry PFC chevron.  

 

This is clearly an enlisted man's jacket with officer's insignia on the collar.  But that's probably the way it was worn--at least after the Armistice.  

 

I've mostly sold off the collection now but once had over 400 WW1 uniforms.  A surprising number of them had "wrong" insignia on the collar.  Off the top of my head, i've seen:

 

- Officer insignia

- Two US disks

- US and State disks on the same uniform

- Infantry and Machine Gun on the same uniform

- No disks and no provision for disks

- US disk and Officer Infantry

- Officer US and Enlisted Air Service

 

There are probably many, many more variations of "wrong" collar insignia on enlisted jackets floating around out there.

 

Many veterans proudly wore their uniforms in parades for years after the war and briefly again at the start of WW2.  After a while I just stopped worrying about the configuration of insignia on WW1 enlisted-men's jackets.

 

Nice uniform!

 

Chris



#14 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 11:58 AM

what about the sam browne belt that came with it? I thought they were only for officer?



#15 world war I nerd

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 12:32 PM

It's possible that the man who wore this service coat was what was called a "3rd Lieutenant".

 

A 3rd Lieutenant was an enlisted man (usually an NCO) who had completed the AEF officer's training school, but was never officially commissioned as an officer due to the unexpected signing of the Armistice in November of 1918. I read in a post-war pamphlet titled, "Who they were and what they did", that some of the so called 3rd Lieutenants wore silver cuff braid on the sleeves of their service coats to denote that they would have been promoted to officer status had the ending of the war not canceled their promotion.

 

I doubt that the wearing of silver braid was ever sanctioned by the War Department, but I don't know that assumption to be a fact.

 

However, I would not be surprised to learn that some of the graduates of the AEF officers' training course, who were never commissioned, wore (or acquired in the hopes of wearing) many of the trappings of a commissioned officer in the AEF. This could explain why officers' U.S. collar devices were worn on an enlisted man's service coat and the presence of the Sam Browne belt, which he likely purchased in the hopes of being able to wear. 

 

On a similar note, Special Regulations No. 41, dated September 2, 1919, authorized enlisted men who had been commissioned, and served as officers in the AEF, but who, after the Armistice, had subsequently been reduced to their pre-Armistice NCO status to wear forest green cuff braid to signify that they had served as a commissioned officer in the recent Great War.



#16 MAW

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 01:12 PM

Honestly...folks are overthinking this one.

 

Officer insignia is commonly seen in photos worn on enlistedmen's caps and jackets.  Not unusual at all.

 

It's a nice PFC's jacket.  The Sam Browne was either married in by someone who didn't understand, or came from another relative, etc.

 

Is there an ID on it?



#17 Fratlanta

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 01:27 PM

No ID on it



#18 littlewilly

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 03:44 PM

Officer insignia on an enlisted coat was a BIG no-no.............impersonating an officer, which could bring pretty severe punishment.  The 3rd Lt. issue mentioned above would be the only exception that could possibly have gotten an enlisted man freedom from harrassment by MP's as they left the service.  Certainly not officially sanctioned.  The men so attired would most certainly have had a certificate of some kind to prove they had been in the training program.  Something I am sure an MP would want the wearer to produce when questioned.  There obviously was no problem with e.m.'s wearing the officer insignia on their overseas caps, as I have something like 20 such examples in my collection, many from local veterans.  Even black soldiers managed to wear them (MP's generally got all over a black soldier with the slightest variance from regulation insignia on his uniform).  The SR 71 Regulations mentioned by world war 1 nerd certainly gave the authority for officer cuff braid on e.m. coats, but I have never encountered the combination myself.  Most of us have seen the photos of enlisted style coats worn in combat by officers with just the cuff braid to show their officer status so they did not stand out so much during combat operations (German snipers loved officer targets).  The 3rd lt. pattern would be close to that, but I doubt that any of those examples were worn after the fighting ceased, and certainly were not worn home.  If retained at all, they were probably packed away in a trunk for shipment home.  As Chris noted above, a number of unauthorized insignia can be found on coats, the question is.....who put them there.  That - we will never know.  And with the flood of troops going home at the end of the war, many unauthorized arrangements may have slipped by the overwhelmed MP's looking for such violations.             MHJ                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       



#19 CW4AFB

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 06:24 PM

I agree with Chris---I've examined hundreds of Third Army Occupation-period portraits made in Germany during the early months (Dec 1918 to April 1919) and every possible combination on the list below can be seen --except for enlisted men wearing officer's rank--never saw that one--by May 1919 the supply system was improving and the regulations started to tighten up but before that it was pretty much whatever you wore was acceptable   A bigger problem, if you read the S&S and later the AMAROC News, was soldiers wearing officer's leather leggings  or brilliantly colored, locally made rank chevrons...and nobody even mentions the hundreds of soldiers wearing "Gott Mit Uns" German Army belts and buckles...

 

-

 


Based on OPs description I thought he might be describing a Field Clerk's coat.  Field Clerks eventually became warrant officers but during the war sometimes wore officers uniforms without cuff braid...

 

Then I saw the Infantry PFC chevron.  

 

This is clearly an enlisted man's jacket with officer's insignia on the collar.  But that's probably the way it was worn--at least after the Armistice.  

 

I've mostly sold off the collection now but once had over 400 WW1 uniforms.  A surprising number of them had "wrong" insignia on the collar.  Off the top of my head, i've seen:

 

- Officer insignia

- Two US disks

- US and State disks on the same uniform

- Infantry and Machine Gun on the same uniform

- No disks and no provision for disks

- US disk and Officer Infantry

- Officer US and Enlisted Air Service

 

There are probably many, many more variations of "wrong" collar insignia on enlisted jackets floating around out there.

 

Many veterans proudly wore their uniforms in parades for years after the war and briefly again at the start of WW2.  After a while I just stopped worrying about the configuration of insignia on WW1 enlisted-men's jackets.

 

Nice uniform!

 

Chris



#20 CW4AFB

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 04:51 PM

And if you thought I was kidding in the previous response in this thread--check out this 17th Evac Hospital medic who has created his own uniform out of a set of hospital "whites."  

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#21 kaiserwilhelm2

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 01:22 AM

Nice tunic!



#22 manayunkman

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:18 PM

Many guys would continue to wear their jackets for parades and such for many years after the war. 

 

This jacket looks like it was made for that purpose.




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