15 replies to this topic

[dhcoleterracina]

These were recovered in Europe. They aren't all the same. Any idea of what is here? Most are believed to be from a M-1

 

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[dhcoleterracina]

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[Rhscott]

I would imagine the shorter ones are 150gr M2 ball and the longer ones are .30 AP and APIT. Both were common and interchangeable and both came factory clip loaded.

[dhcoleterracina]

Many thanks

[Garandomatic]

I forget offhand... Were either boat-tailed?  I think the M2 I've recovered and whatnot was flat bottomed, but it might not have been WWII vintage and a fair comparison.

[Chris_B]

According to my reference, Cal .30 M1 cartridge used a boat tailed bullet. M2 is flat-based, so is M1906.

[USARV72]

From 9-1900 1945.

[Chris_B]

Could you clarify please

[USARV72]

Posted .30 Cal. ammo page from TM 9-1900 , AMMUNITION, 1945. Without looking at copy of Small Arms ammunition regarding M-1 ball, unsure,IIRC M1 was discontinued in 1941, was pretty “ hot” round, worked well in 1917 MGs in WWI.

[Rhscott]

I had read that too. M1 ball would bend operating rods in the M1 rifle.
Even thru Korea for talking to Vets the go to GP round was the AP round for e erything. Plenty of M2 ball but with the AP and API and APIT coming pre clipped in crates it was easier logistics wise. Most of that stuff was steel jacketed.

[USARV72]

Read a few years ago General Pattons “ boys in the rear” got mostly AP clipped rounds for 3rd Army. Standard M2 ball will penetrate lots of normal “ cover”, AP will really penetrate just about everything. Fired AP at normal 3/4” steel plate, like hot knife through butter. Trees, forget about it.

[Chris_B]

Posted .30 Cal. ammo page from TM 9-1900 , AMMUNITION, 1945. Without looking at copy of Small Arms ammunition regarding M-1 ball, unsure,IIRC M1 was discontinued in 1941, was pretty “ hot” round, worked well in 1917 MGs in WWI.

 

I can see the image. I can also see that the M1 shown was not ball, and that the other page shows what appears to be boat tail rounds.

 

I cannot tell if you're showing that M1 ball was not boat tail or what; information on the other page seems possibly related.

 

My understanding was that M1 was causing problems in training due to the distance it could travel, in part because of the boat tail.

[USARV72]

Part of “ other page” is .50 Cal. Browning MG ammo, which is visible ,not .30 Cal. M-2. M-1 ball was discontinued in 1941,IIRC as stated. M-2 ball is not boat tail as clearly shown in WWII manual. Boat tail design of projectile has little to nothing to do with distance a projectile will/ would travel. Where did you obtain your info regarding “ problems” in training during WWII?

[USARV72]

Ok, got to thinking about M-1 ball so got Hatchets Notebook. P23,”A Brief History of the Service Cartridge” states M-1 ball was first adopted in 1925”, type E 9 degree Boat Tail 174 grn bullet at 2700 FPS with extreem range of 5900 yds. 1936 there were issues with over pressure the load was reduced lowering velocity to 2600 FPS. Rounds shot Beyond the Danger Zones of ranges. 1936 overshooting caused redesign with 150 grn flat based bullet ,standardized as Cartridge, ball, Caliber.30 M2. in 1940.
Was this the overshooting problem refered to?

[Chris_B]

The range issue referred to was M1 ball, and related to characteristics of the design overall, but not excluding increased longer-range energy retention due to bullet shape. I do not know where the confusion comes from regarding M2 possibly being boat tailed; I did not state that M2 was boat tailed. Thank you for info about the other pages.

[USARV72]

No problem, the 5900 max range of M-1 was due to the load, spitzer bullet got pushed way to fast, at least for M-1 Garands. M-1 worked very well in 1917 ‘s , BAR’s and of course O3’s. Wanted to show exactly what M-2 is as that was a question. Overshooting or over penitrations are PPP on part of the Army. Used to shoot “ many weapons”at Camp Butner NC, were told by N C N G no more .50 Cal. and very limited small guns up to 50 mm. There is a 5 mile buffer zone behind the range, plenty of trees too, never had high rounds. Dont shoot there any more.