ERDL vs Mitchell Pattern Camouflage

[huntssurplus]

Hey guys,

I have a question about Vietnam Camo. So if I'm correct, no official issue Micthell pattern uniforms were made during the Vietnam war, but there were unofficial privately tailored uniforms made, mostly on Okinawa. However the ERDL pattern had jungle jackets and other uniforms made specifically for special forces, and the USMC. So my question is how rare are ERDL uniforms and why was the ERDL pattern developed when they already had the Mitchell pattern? Also, how can you tell original Mitchell Pattern uniforms or is is just the crossing your fingers? For example what about these two uniforms:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitchell-Camouflage-Parka-Smock-Reversible-Vietnam-War-Era-Jacket-Hooded-Used/202438083370?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160727114228%26meid%3D71a19583d62c43e1afa31efa9c9b020f%26pid%3D100290%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D202438083370%26itm%3D202438083370&_trksid=p2060778.c100290.m3507

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Theater-made-Mitchell-pattern-camouflage-jacket/223169903315?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

And what about ERDL Uniforms, why were they only issued to the USMC and Special forces?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USMC-Vietnam-ERDL-Tropical-Camo-Jungle-Jacket-Small-Long-Cotton-Poplin-NAMED/202454463803?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

Like this one has the USMC stencil but were these made for the USMC or did the USMC aquire them from the Army?

I'm a bit new to the Vietnam world so looking for some info!

Thanks,

Hunt

[USARV72]

Suggest buying Shelby Stantons book on RVN uniforms and equipment. IIRC, ERDL was developed well before RVN began, was considered the best camo for quite awhile. Looking at all the crazy patterns developed in the last few years, still like either ERDL patteren for jungle or woodland camo. JMHO.

[Martinjmpr]

There's actually a thread on "conventional" (i.e. non SF, Ranger or Marine) units wearing ERDL camo in Vietnam. Late in the war it was not uncommon to see a hodge-podge of uniforms in some units with some wearing green OG-107 jungle uniforms and some wearing ERDL uniforms in the same pattern with the slanted pockets.

 

WRT Mitchell vs. ERDL, I believe ERDL was actually developed first. AFAIK Mitchell pattern camo was only used on helmet covers and shelter halves. I have seen field jackets in Mitchell pattern but my understanding (corrections welcomed) is that they were likely made by tailors on Okinawa using shelter half material.

 

I think there were some experimental uniforms done in Mitchell pattern but to my knowledge they were never issued generally to either the Army or Marines.

 

What I find interesting is why the military used Mitchell pattern at all if they already had ERDL. I can confirm, though, that Mitchell pattern helmet covers were still being issued in the Army as late as the 1980's when I came in. I had a mitchell pattern helmet cover in basic training at Fort Benning in August of 1980.

[huntssurplus]

Thanks for the comments. I didn't know ERDL was developed before the Mitchell Pattern was. So all mitchell pattern uniforms are most likely post war or tailored and not used in country? I wouldn't be surprised though that regular soldiers could have gotten ERDL I guess there are always ways to get your hands on them even if they were necessarily issued. Any ideas on what an ERDL uniform is worth? And are there any known original tailored Mitchell Pattern uniforms used in country during the war? With included proof by either vet personal account or picture evidence?

 

Hunt

[vintageproductions]

ERDL has way too many variants to just say want a set is worth. What pattern ERDL ? Rip Stop vs poplin? sizes? Etc.

 

I believe you say more photos of USAF personnel wearing ERDL then you ever will Special Forces.

 

There are lots of photos of custom Mitchell pieces being worn in Vietnam. But not wide spread as the material didn't "breathe" and the wearer would do nothing but sweat.

[doyler]

Thanks for the comments. I didn't know ERDL was developed before the Mitchell Pattern was. So all mitchell pattern uniforms are most likely post war or tailored and not used in country? I wouldn't be surprised though that regular soldiers could have gotten ERDL I guess there are always ways to get your hands on them even if they were necessarily issued. Any ideas on what an ERDL uniform is worth? And are there any known original tailored Mitchell Pattern uniforms used in country during the war? With included proof by either vet personal account or picture evidence?

 

Hunt

 

 

I believe it (ERDL) was developed in 1948...or born then.

[huntssurplus]

So how common are ERDL Jungle Jackets then? Are like as common as regular OG-107 Jungle Jackets, or are they rarer. And how many different patterns are there?

Thanks for all the help with my questions so far

Hunt

[USARV72]

Hunt, buy the book and a few others. Dont rely on just online for all info, nothing beats good books by excellent authors. Have seen several pics of mitchell pattern headgear and jackets/ shirts. As posted above they were in country made by mamasan, regardless of where. ERDL was G. D. or B. D, green for use in the southern corps areas, brown up north. In 72 ERDL was pretty commonplace, most wearers were or were going “ in the bush”. Most operating with Marvin the ARVIN, advisors or S.F.. There were regulations against wearing it unless authorised, cut down on rear area commandos, LOL. Most of the time everyone took off their jackets and got a good tan, remember it usually was 100-120 until the monsoon hit. No one wore underware, crotch rot would kill you, tee shirts got soaking wet in 2-3 minutes. I sent home some ERDL but dont remember what happened to it, most likely used for hunting?

[doyler]

 

[huntssurplus]

Hunt, buy the book and a few others. Dont rely on just online for all info, nothing beats good books by excellent authors. Have seen several pics of mitchell pattern headgear and jackets/ shirts. As posted above they were in country made by mamasan, regardless of where. ERDL was G. D. or B. D, green for use in the southern corps areas, brown up north. In 72 ERDL was pretty commonplace, most wearers were or were going “ in the bush”. Most operating with Marvin the ARVIN, advisors or S.F.. There were regulations against wearing it unless authorised, cut down on rear area commandos, LOL. Most of the time everyone took off their jackets and got a good tan, remember it usually was 100-120 until the monsoon hit. No one wore underware, crotch rot would kill you, tee shirts got soaking wet in 2-3 minutes. I sent home some ERDL but dont remember what happened to it, most likely used for hunting?

 

https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Army-Uniforms-Vietnam-War/dp/0811725847/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538696562&sr=1-6&keywords=shelby+stanton

 

Is this the book you recommended? I definitely think I should build up my reference books looks like he made some on WW2 and Korea which I'll get as well!

 

Hunt

[USARV72]

Hunt, yes thats it, cant go wrong. Have several sets of ERDL, G.D and B.D. and the first non rip stop. First non rip stop ERDL is kind of like “ a virgin in Siagon in 1970”, just an old saying, no intent to offend.

[Old Marine]

Nice Camo Ron.

[huntssurplus]

Hunt, yes thats it, cant go wrong. Have several sets of ERDL, G.D and B.D. and the first non rip stop. First non rip stop ERDL is kind of like “ a virgin in Siagon in 1970”, just an old saying, no intent to offend.

 

Okay thanks for the heads up, just bought his 4 volume series, WW2 uniforms, Korean War Uniforms, Cold War Uniforms, and Vietnam War Uniforms. Hopefully, that should be a pretty good reference for my future collecting endeavors!

 

Thanks again for the tip!

Hunt

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

ERDL was G. D. or B. D, green for use in the southern corps areas, brown up north.

How is this possible with both green and brown dom having the same contract number and name?

[kammo-man]

Erdl

Same but different

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[USARV72]

Cap cammo, unsure of your question? Numbers mean little to application, G.D. was intended for use in greener enviroments, brown for browner. Refer to Stantons book. Might attempt to post some pics if can figure out this *@ apple tablet.......

[MattS]

My knowledge of ERDL is limited, but green dominant has light green, dark green, brown, and black in the pattern where brown dominant has light brown, dark green, brown, and black. Good illustration here: http://www.gear-illustration.com/2016/03/18/tcu-erdl-3rd-pattern/

[USARV72]

Matt, thanks for posting, should clear any confusion. 20 years ago? ( crs) friend had docs regarding development of ERDL, pretty sure several members here have it. May be online?

[USARV72]

[attachment

B.D. ERDL

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

Cap cammo, unsure of your question? Numbers mean little to application, G.D. was intended for use in greener enviroments, brown for browner. Refer to Stantons book. Might attempt to post some pics if can figure out this *@ apple tablet.......

Alright, I was a little bit off, I haven't got a set of wartime ERDL yet, they don't have a stock number as far as I can see online. But the names are the exact same "coat, man's, cotton wr poplin,camouflage pattern". No mention of green or brown dom.

 

 

Say for an example we have a quarter master in the highlands of Vietnam, he needs to get new ERDL uniforms for his unit. Since they are in the highlands, he will get brown dom. How does he order it?

 

If he requests "coat, man's, cotton wr poplin,camouflage pattern" he could get either green or brown dom, or both. Does he keep ordering extra until he gets enough of the right color? Does he write "the one with more brown" in the margin and then someone further up the supply chain opens up the packages of uniforms to check what color they are, the packages would all be marked the same right?

 

 

As far as I can see there is no way to direct a certain color of ERDL to a unit. For this reason I feel that the different colors can be nothing more than a manufacturing varriation. I feel this is further backed up by uniforms like the one Kamo Man posted that use both green and brown dom fabric in the same uniform.

[USARV72]

Was not in supply, although a C.I.F. was part of our large unit. Never say never with anything military, years ago had a WWI era Medical belt, half the snaps were Eagle snap, other lift the dot. Still in the original tan paper, real N.O.S. One needs to remember that years ago functional was what was needed, not making sure numbers matched. SWAG is that in Vietnam any ERDL being sent N. would be B.D. C.I.F. guys knew what was going on.BTW, C.I.F. is Clothing Issue Facility. Have a pic taken in the supply side of our unit that has all the Spc. rank insignia, and yes we had a few Spc. 7s in Ord. and Main Support shop. If this *&$#@ tablet would resize pics could post lots of collection.......

Tags in B.D.

[Spike]

Cap Camo, you are overthinking this whole thing. Brown and gren dom are collector terms and were never used during the war. As far as what was used where, that is speculation at best. There wasn't specific camo for specific areas in VN. Brown dom didn't come into existence until 69/70 and was issued as needed, regardless of areas.

[USARV72]

Set of G.D. ERDL W/ equip and rubber duck.

[kammo-man]

This whole thread is not make sense.

[Rhscott]

Seems to have started when someone said Green stuff went to the jungle and the brown stuff went to the hills. Question was how did they accomplish this when by 1969 BOTH Green and Brown ERDL had the same name AND NSN per size. I had asked this question a week ago.

I see no way possible that by late 69 thru 73 mixed sets could be avoided. Items are order by NSN, with both having the same NSNs you got a box with a bunch of that size item inside and when you open it you had one or the other.