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M9A1 AT Grenade Markings?


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#1 Bellumbill

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 03:11 PM

Hello -

 

Any of you guys out there have an actual, not training, M9A1 round that has retained its original markings?  I have 4 in my collection but none have any markings - I don't know if they wore off or if they never had any applied.  Online all I can seem to find are reproductions or other real grenades with no markings.  Even the WWII manual doesn't show anything concrete.  Were the real ones even marked?  

 

Any help would be appreciated.  

 

Best regards,

Sincerely

 

Bill K.



#2 pzjgr

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 04:39 PM

Are they original yellow or later OD painted?

 

I checked the references I have with me on my computer....and you are right, I didn't see anything that showed markings, nor I have I seen any original paint yellow ones with markings...

 

I have an original M9A1, but it had been repainted in metallic flake maroon...??? Don't ask me, but I didn't see any evidence of marking under the repaint either....

 

Good question though....



#3 thorin6

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 05:32 PM

Wikipedia has a picture of one with markings; don't know if they are correct.



#4 Bellumbill

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 06:59 PM

Thanks guys!  I have one yellow M9A1 and 3 green ones.  No markings that I can see were ever on there.  At this point I am thinking they were not marked.  

 

Pzjgr - did you repaint yours?  

 

Best,

 

Bill K.



#5 917601

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:10 PM

All live ordnance must be marked due to obvious reasons, explosive type, manufacture date, shelf life, etc. The reason I believe yours are not marked is simple. Ordnance was marked at the time of explosive filling. If it was not filled, it was not marked.

#6 Bellumbill

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:56 PM

917601 -

 

Hmmm, that is an interesting observation!   And I am reiterating my plea - IF anyone has a marked one I would love to see it.  I haven't seen one in 40 years of collecting - I have seen mortar rounds and almost every other type of WWII ordnance in collections (demilled or defused of course) with markings but never an M9A1.  Could it be a real one never made it out of the army and into collectors hands?

 

Best,

 

Bill



#7 rldarmstr

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 12:37 AM

Is this what you want?

Attached Images

  • M9 -3-2.jpg
  • M9 -5-2.jpg
  • M9 -6-2.jpg


#8 Bellumbill

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 07:34 AM

Rid -

 

Do you happen to know if that is original with original markings?  That looks like a reproduction to me?

 

Best,



#9 Latewatch

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:15 AM

This is from a Signal Corps photo taken near Rome in February 1945.

 

I have 2 M9A1's and also not seen a marked M9A1 in 25+ years collecting this stuff. I believe that the M9A1's that are out there in collector's hands probably walked off the production line in lunch boxes and or were pulled off for some training/demonstration purpose prior to being marked/charged.

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  • resized_RG Rome 1945.JPG


#10 917601

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:38 AM

Is this what you want?


My 2C, repaint. The inking is excellent tho. WW2 used Fed Standard paint 34079 green, and inking was FS 33538 yellow. They rarely primed them either. The metal was de greased, heated up,and sprayed warm with a laquer based paint. The pictured one shows no tube transit wear, and no 75 year oxidation, and paint filling some minor pitting on the head, much to " clean and nice". All the original WW2 paint jobs I have are much, much darker, and not really OD but a dark green. Here is one I repainted, I took much time to buy most the Fed Standard paints to match up the best spots of original coloring which had 60 percent remaining. I used five FS green standards, FS 34079 came the closest to all my original WW2 dated pieces. See pics...notice to the right of the number 9, original color with minor very small surface rust, still a shade darker ( age oxidation) but the closet match. Your yellow appears a shade off also, could be the lighting- did you use FS 33538?

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  • image.jpeg

Edited by 917601, 12 June 2018 - 08:50 AM.


#11 ordnance

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 01:44 PM

This one isn't much to look at but is what you requested.  I have several OD painted M9A1s and none of them have original markings.  As Latewatch says, the majority of surviving examples came from the factories where the metal parts were made and were never loaded or marked.

 

 

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  • M9A1-1.jpg
  • M9A1-2.jpg
  • M9A1-3.jpg


#12 917601

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:07 PM

This one isn't much to look at but is what you requested.  I have several OD painted M9A1s and none of them have original markings.  As Latewatch says, the majority of surviving examples came from the factories where the metal parts were made and were never loaded or marked.
 
 

Very very nice. A rarity. Have you looked into the threaded open end and see if it is empty? No doubt it is, just wondering if the metal cone ( copper piece formed the shaped charge) is still in it? If so, you have an extremely rare ordnance item. One of the reasons none exist is the difficulty in down loading the M9, the filled explosive would have to be " cooked" or burnt out, in the process the paint is also burnt out. Thanks for posting.

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Edited by 917601, 12 June 2018 - 06:20 PM.


#13 ccyooper

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 11:04 AM

I have only seen a couple of yellow ones that were marked and 1 green one that was an italy battlefield relic that had identification on it. I believe most of the rifle grenades found are trainers or were not live grenades. One indicator was that the body union was supposed to be cemented and staked when the grenade was assembled.  Most of, if not all, the grenades that are floating around will not have the stake  marks on the body union and body which to me indicates they were never loaded with explosives. Those that were active are most likely repaints because as 917 indicates the charge (to my knowledge) has to be cooked out of them. All the ordnance publications I have; proof manuals, TM's, and special documents indicate that they are marked as other ordnance (some have pics).  As Latewatch points out, RG's with legible original markings are very hard to find.   

 

I'm with 917 on post 7, I think the grenade may also be a euro repop, it would be interesting to see the inside pieces.  Thanks to all that have posted on this interesting thread.



#14 Bellumbill

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:11 PM

Guys -

 

THIS is why I love this forum!  Thank you, thank you!!  This is terrific information.  Ccy, curious what you mean by "staked"?  Also, I always thought the trainers were the ones with the sheet metal tops and cast bodies so you could fire them and then just replace the tops?  Other trainers I have seen were all sheet metal bodies but I always guessed just for class room purposes?

 

Again, this is a great discussion - Thank you again so much guys.  I have always loved these grenades and love to learn more about them.

 

Very best,

 

Bill K.

 

PS, I still think it is amazing as you see the number of real MKII hand grenades, 60mm mortar rounds, and other real ordnance that made it home but seems like hardly any M9A1s?  Oh, wait, 917 answered that!   Great info.  

 

PSS, anyone here think it surprising that in the above pic they are using yellow painted ordnance in 1945? 


Edited by Bellumbill, 13 June 2018 - 12:20 PM.


#15 ccyooper

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 04:43 PM

Like fuzes, etc; when the body union (adapter) was screwed into the base of the body the first three threads were to be coated with pettman cement (a sealer used on fuzes etc) and then it was staked with a punch so it would or could not be disassembled. Hope this helps.

#16 USARV72

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:03 PM

FM 23-30, 14 Feb. 1944, page 7 and 58 shows markings in black and white. TM 9- 1900, June 1945, page 20 has color pics. Hope this helps.

#17 rldarmstr

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 04:33 AM

If the grenade bodies were manufactured and not marked at the time of manufacture, that process would deviate from most if not all other government contracted munitions. If the non marking was due to cost reductions during war time I could understand it but not as something omitted from the manufacturing process just because the munition was not loaded. The designation had to be known when the bodies and internal parts of this grenade type were manufactured.

 

The picture I supplied to this thread previously seems to show characters that were stenciled on. I don't know the history of the item in those pictures so I can't say with any certainty that it is an accurate representation of the technique used to label the M9's. I would assume that the labeled characters would be more distinct and cleaner looking; however, the following may have some relevance to this?

 

RECOMMENDATION OF THE ORDNANCE COMMITTEE MEETING
HELD 12 October 1942

 

    That all H.E. bombs and separate loaded H.E. ammunition be painted with lusterless olive drab paints containing available infrared reflecting pigments. Formulas for suitable infra-red reflecting paints of adequate stability and which do not contain critical materials, are available and will be incorporated in the specifications.

    b. That other ammunition, fixed ant semi-fixed rounds, rockets, grenades, mines, etc, except Small Arms, remain as they are at present with the following exceptions:


    I. That all colors used on ammunition be lusterless instead of the present semi-gloss, to dull finish.
   
II. That the yellow color now in use as a base color on H.E. ammunition be changed to a lusterless olive drab with No, 4 yellow stencil to designate H.E. filler.
    III. That all wooden ammunition boxes used in the transportation of ammunition to the using services be stained a light brown color to decrease their visibility.
    IV. That all metal parts on the exposed portion of the ammunition boxes and containers be painted with a light brown lusterless enamel.

    c. That a lusterless color card be prepared to show lusterless color including infra-red reflecting colors, for use on ammunition, similar to the present color standards issued in connection with specification No. 3-1; General Specification for Paint, and Related Materials.

    d. That current stocks of artillery ammunition packed in fiber or other containers in which the ammunition is issued to troops need not be repainted. Current Stocks of separate loaded ammunition will be repainted if and when practicable. Current stocks of bombs, which are now painted with lusterless olive drab without infra-red pigments need not be repainted. Current stocks of rifle grenades, hand grenades and rockets in depots will be repainted to conform with these recommendations.
    Stocks of rifle grenades, hand grenades and rockets in hand of troops will be repainted if and when practicable.



#18 917601

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 04:18 PM

Not sure what you are saying but I will add....markings were applied immediately after the filling station designating what type of explosive ( mixture and blends- they changed constantly) was filled into the projectile. Many different blends were used. The Lot number ( visible on all loaded projectiles) was not the forging,manufacture of the the shell or body,but it was the Lot number of the factories explosive that was mixed and blended,that lot number code was type, blend, how much filled, " shelf life" of the explosive mixture. This was done to insure storage ( shelf life) was not exceeded, tracking down " dud" mixtures, etc...the same reason lot cards were included in all small arms ammo, to quickly be able to identify defective factory blends and mixtures. No lot number- no energetic filling.

Edited by 917601, 15 June 2018 - 04:27 PM.



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