nova Posted June 7, 2018 Share #1 Posted June 7, 2018 After doing research, I have some questions about WWII paratropper chin cups and A frames that I have. I have found a variety of information, with some saying different things for the same part. Can anyone tell me if the pictured chin cups are paratrooper or something else? I believe they are real but they may or may not be period correct. Either way, what are they and when were they used? Also, are the pictured A frames real? I believe they are. What timeframe were they used? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #2 Posted June 7, 2018 Working on posting more photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #3 Posted June 7, 2018 More pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #4 Posted June 7, 2018 Last 2. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #5 Posted June 7, 2018 Sorry. I added the same one twice. Last one. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 7, 2018 Share #6 Posted June 7, 2018 The first A Frame straps are fake....as best I can see. The second chin cup is not a para cup and I don’t know about the first. The second helmets A Frame looks ok to me but I can’t see it very well. Better photos would help along with photos of the rivets. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 7, 2018 Share #7 Posted June 7, 2018 Sorry. I added the same one twice. Last one. Thank you. The helmet in this photo should be a Westinghouse marked liner for it to be a factory made M1C. Better photo's are needed inside and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted June 7, 2018 Share #8 Posted June 7, 2018 I agree with ronnie, the first one looks like repro a straps and buckles and i even think the whole liner has been rewebbed with repro webbing...mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #9 Posted June 7, 2018 I am hoping adding 2 helmets at once is not confusing to anyone. The 1st 3 photos belong to the same M1C helmet. The last 4 belong to the 2nd helmet, having 2 duplicate photos. The 1st helmet is a M1C with a Westinghouse liner. I showed it to a guy at a gun show who only deals with US helmets and he thought the A frame was late war correct but wasn't sure about the chin cup. The helmet is dated later war and likely used in the Pacific. I have seen this chin cup on many pictures but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Regarding the 2nd helmet, I don't think the chin cup is paratrooper but the A frames look OK to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #10 Posted June 7, 2018 I'll post some pictures of the 1st liner later. The 2nd liner is not a Westinghouse and I think has been reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant G. Posted June 7, 2018 Share #11 Posted June 7, 2018 I am afraid both pieces are recent fabrications. Helmet Liner: Homemade OD#7 A-yokes Leather chincup of unknown origin, likely a poor quality reproduction Reproduction leather liner strap Helmet Set: Reproduction OD#7 A-yokes Navy "talker" helmet chincup Reproduction headband, dyed with shoe polish (neckband is also likely a reproduction) Reproduction leather liner strap Recently converted M2 steel shell with the wrong type of chinstraps (brass snaps when they should be nickel) and poor quality bails (should not be stainless steel) Additionally, the liner belonging to the helmet set is of post-war Westinghouse/Capac manufacture, but features WWII khaki suspension, Early-WWII steel A-washers, and late-WWII OD#7 A-yokes with very late-WWII brass wire buckles. Not only did Westinghouse/Capac liners not yet exist during WWII, they never made paratrooper liners in this configuration - nor did any other manufacturer. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but hopefully you can get your money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Hazard Posted June 7, 2018 Share #12 Posted June 7, 2018 Both these liners look very familiar, especially the one with the rusty A-washers, I believe they were posted on this forum before and confirmed as bad fakes. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 7, 2018 Share #13 Posted June 7, 2018 This is one of my Westinghouse factory M1C liners. I had four of them and am now down to two. They all had the same thing's in common. Those things are shown in the photo's. The liner stamp is hard to see, but it is marked W D-12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 7, 2018 Share #14 Posted June 7, 2018 The last photo is how I display it. The helmet chinstraps are repop's from Top Pots. The rest is period correct for Market Garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #15 Posted June 7, 2018 Interesting info. I'll have to take notes and digest it. I am enclosing 2 more pictures of the liner. 1 of the outside and one of the A washer area. The guy I spoke to at the show told me that he thought the liner rivets and A washers looked undisturbed. I have seen liners where the rivets show signs of being disturbed which makes me think the webbing has been replaced. Let me know what you think about this one. It is a Westinghouse liner and has the small hole in the front like all WWII liners. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 7, 2018 Share #16 Posted June 7, 2018 Look close at the photo's I posted on both M-1C's. The weave of the yoke in your photo is not correct and the weave of the webbing and it's color are not correct. Your photo's are of a liner that was created not very long ago. Do not buy this, its a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #17 Posted June 7, 2018 When you say "Yoke", are you referring to the A frame? I don't know all of the terminology yet. My next question: Is it possible to remove rivets and A washers and reinstall them without it looking like they were never removed? Or is it likely the parts were never used and just put on this liner? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 7, 2018 Share #18 Posted June 7, 2018 When you say "Yoke", are you referring to the A frame? I don't know all of the terminology yet. My next question: Is it possible to remove rivets and A washers and reinstall them without it looking like they were never removed? Or is it likely the parts were never used and just put on this liner? Thank you. Yes, Top Pots and others sells the "A" washers, yokes, rivets and rivet tool for doing just that. Top Pots states they have these for repairing liners that are damaged. Some people buy these items to make fakes. When I first saw the liners I bought I hid them off in a corner and raced home to go on line and compare them with known originals. I then raced back and bought all of them. I also noticed your sweat band snaps are black, they should be green. Even the buckles are wrong for a Westinghouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #19 Posted June 7, 2018 Thank you very much. I will take really good notes and be better prepared in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 7, 2018 Share #20 Posted June 7, 2018 One of the things I look at with any liner is, does everything line up. What I mean by that is , is everything on the liner the same, same dirty look, same ware patterns, are the marks on the liner paint in keeping with the marks inside the pot. Does the rust line up. Does the dirt line up. Has the sweat band always been attached to the webbing, pop the snap spring and look at how the webbing looks to either side of the snap spring. The webbing should be cleaner under the snap and dirty to either side of the snap if they have been together over time. The nape and sweat band should look the same in overall dirt and ware. In your photo's they clearly do not look like they have been together any period of time because they haven't been. Study good photo's. Not all helmets look the same. Some had hard use and everything should reflect that. Some had little use and everything should reflect that too. Some were reissued and had parts replaced, even they have common traits that indicate they have been together for a long period of time. Study what changes were made in the production of war time helmets and liners and when they were done. I had no idea of all the changes in production when I first started. If you don't want to be taken to the cleaners and part with your hard earned money for crap you should read everything you can and study good photo's. You will find good info on line. Yours David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share #21 Posted June 7, 2018 Excellent advice. I will build some good data sheets so I can quickly identify and compare. I have an unissued helmet and I am going to study it and take very good pictures and notes. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted June 8, 2018 Author Share #22 Posted June 8, 2018 Last thing. I have a para helmet and I wanted to know if the chin straps are original. The heat stamp is somewhere early 1945. believe they are. If not, please educate me. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant G. Posted June 8, 2018 Share #23 Posted June 8, 2018 Last thing. I have a para helmet and I wanted to know if the chin straps are original. The heat stamp is somewhere early 1945. believe they are. If not, please educate me. Thanks Nova, the chinstraps on this M1-C are indeed original. Would love to see more photos of this helmet shell; take care! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-59A Posted June 8, 2018 Share #24 Posted June 8, 2018 I would like to see the stitch at the bail. Other than that the strap looks good. You can find a listing of heat lot stamps corresponding to the year it was made on line. Show the helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted June 8, 2018 Share #25 Posted June 8, 2018 Interesting info. I'll have to take notes and digest it. I am enclosing 2 more pictures of the liner. 1 of the outside and one of the A washer area. The guy I spoke to at the show told me that he thought the liner rivets and A washers looked undisturbed. I have seen liners where the rivets show signs of being disturbed which makes me think the webbing has been replaced. Let me know what you think about this one. It is a Westinghouse liner and has the small hole in the front like all WWII liners. Thank you Let you know what we think. We already did! Its fake as a three dollar bill.....regardless of what the guy at the gun show told you. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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