My real M1917A1 USMC WWII Veteran

[MG34_Dan]

Over the years I've posted pictures and descriptions of my RIA '17A1 on other sites and it was suggested by some that I post information about it here. Since this is Memorial Day weekend, I felt now was the perfect time to do so. Please be patient with me, especially concerning photos, as I find this site to be somewhat "challenging". Here is the story of my old girl:

In 2009 while I was perusing Gun Broker, I spotted a DEWATed 1917A1 Browning water cooled machine gun just sitting there. It had no bids on it whatsoever even after being listed for two weeks. Being curious, I contacted the seller and discovered this Browning was coming out of a museum in Portsmouth, VA that was closing its doors. After a great deal of consternation and consultations with knowledgeable people, I decided to bid on it. I estimated that an after-market Browning registered right side plate (RSP) was worth $10K all by itself, the RIA marked 1917A1 tripod was worth $1500, and the un-demilled components were worth $2000. I placed a bid of $10K on it. If worse turned to worse I could disassemble everything as sell the pieces and parts separately and make $3500.

To make a long story short, the 1917A1 turned out to be a real, honest to goodness, WWII Marine Corps veteran of the South Pacific War. It was declared surplus by the US Navy in 1948 and sent to the scrap yard in Norfolk. There it was de-milled and registered as a DEWAT. It was then sold to an 18 year old kid who patched the DEWAT damage with auto body putty and painted it black. He kept it in his basement for 50 years. The museum acquired it from in 1998 kept it on display for over ten years.

Doing my research I discovered it was part of the original September 1941 US government order to Rock Island Arsenal for some 78,000 1917A1 water cooled Brownings. Based on the weapon's serial number, it was manufactured in November 1942. It was sent to the US Navy where it was issued to the US Marine Corps. In 2009 there are only 36 known RIA 1917A1 Browning water cooled machine guns from the original 1941 order left in existence. That's it. The rest were all used up, scrapped, and destroyed. Unlike civilian contracted arms makers (High Standard, Westinghouse, Colt, Browning, Winchester, Remington, IBM, etc.), the US government never released weapons manufactured at government owned facilities for civilian sales. Rock Island Arsenal was US government owned, hence weapons made by them were never released.

It took over two years to find the correct RIA components to replace those damaged during the de-milling process. After completing the required BATFE paperwork, my 1917A1 was re-classified as a live machine gun. I then had it, plus the 1940 RIA 1917A1 tripod, rebuilt and refinished to "as issued" condition. It performs perfectly.

Since the now fully functional machine gun was manufactured over 50 years ago in 1942 it is also classified as a C&R weapon. Ain't government rules and regulations wonderful?

This is a completely restored, fully functional, full auto weapon. It is 100% correct and is as close to "as issued" condition as one can get. I paid my $200 and waited for BATFE's permission to re-activate it. I also wanted a "Tax Stamp" to keep with the weapon. I could have had a friend, a Class 2 manufacturer, do the reactivation for no cost. But in that case I would have needed to transfer the weapon to him (Form 3 with six week wait), he re-activates weapon (Form 2 with six week wait), and transfer back to me (Form 3 with six week wait). No tax stamp would be forthcoming using this scenario.

A little Browning water cooled history: At the end of WWI, the US had 68,000 Browning 1917 belt bed machine guns in inventory. By the end of 1940 there were less than 20,000 in inventory. The remainder of the 68,000 were worn out and scrapped, left on site at the end of various military actions, sent to allies, or sent to the UK on Lend Lease during the dark days of early WWII. In September of 1941 it was decided to order some 47,000 1917A1 Browning belt fed machine guns from the US Government arsenal at Rock Island Illinois. All of the original WWI issued Browning belt fed guns were manufactured by the commercial firms of Remington, Colt, and New England Westinghouse. None were actually US Government made. RIA began actual building the weapons in early 1942 using original repair and replacement parts made by the companies listed above. As the '17A1s came off the assembly line they were immediately placed into service. Most were used up or destroyed by the end of WWII. Of the 47,000 produced from this September 1941 order, today less than 40 are known to survive today. Most of these reside in museums.

Attached is a picture of the weapon's RSP markings, a couple of how it was displayed in the Portsmouth museum when I go it, and the tripod badge.

[Moonlight Gecko]

Very cool! Some great history on how it managed to survive all these years.

[MG34_Dan]

The major parts that needed attention were the water jacket which was battle damaged, the complete top cover and rear sight assembly which was demilled by torch cutting, and the left side plate (LSP) which was also demilled by torch cutting. None of these parts was repairable. Plus, they were difficult to find and costly. Other parts also needing replacement were back plate which was torch cut, barrel also torch cut, and other various pins and washers. Luckily these parts are readily available and not costly. The demilled and missing parts for the tripod were also easy to locate.

 

Below are pictures of the major parts needing replacement (water jacket, top cover, and LSP). Along with these pictures is a copy of the letter that BATF wanted from the museum detailing exactly what parts were inoperable within the weapon.

 

 

[MG34_Dan]

The hardest and most expensive part to locate was an original RIA WWII manufacture 1917A1 left side plate. The period correct top cover and rear sight assembly was also quite scarce as it contained all the correct inter-war components. A new water jacket was manufactured using original Colt specifications and blueprints.

I corresponded with weapons experts and collectors in France, UK, Luxembourg, New Zealand, South Africa, and here in the US. I needed to get pictures of all the markings and inspector stamps so I could verify the correctness of my restoration. The UK and French collectors were especially helpful.

Gunsmiths of note who I relied upon were Jeff Prater of Iron Creations in Morrow, OH, Karl Kurkey of K3 Machine Tools in Houston, and John B. McGuire in McMinnville, TN. Jeff Prater supplied the newly machined water jacket. The old damaged water jacket was removed and the new water jacket was correctly re-soldered in place by Karl Kurkey. At that point everything was delivered to John McGuire who completely disassembled the weapon from the trunnion rearward. He then reassembled, riveted, refinished, and tested the weapon.

 

Damaged and missing tripod components were acquired from Numrich in Kingston, NY. Alex Krueger, formerly of the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg, TX, rebuilt and correctly refinished the tripod. Now you can see why it took my two years to get her up and running.

Below are pictures of the replacement LSP, top cover and rear sight assembly, and water jacket.

As I have reached my posting limit for the day, I will continue with my saga later,

[devildog34]

Amazing resurrection of an old war horse!!!!

Semper Fi

[MG34_Dan]

Well, it's a new day and I can continue with the saga:

The '17A1 was legally de-milled by the then, 1948, standards. Prior to the '86 ban, there was little if any interest in full auto weapons and they had little value.

The transfer of possession of a DEWAT has the same federal paperwork and background check requirements as a live weapon. You must have BATFE's blessings. Sorry, but there is no loophole. The only difference is that this transfer is tax free on a Form 5. Other than that, everything is identical to a $200 taxable transfer via a Form 4.

I did not register, or re-register, the weapon. That was done in 1948 when it was DEWATed. All I did was "re-activate" a currently registered inactive weapon via a $200 tax Form 1.

Since the price of 30.06 ammo is climbing, I decided to get various conversion setups for it. The beauty of the Browning system is how easy it is to change calibers. With a simple barrel change I can shoot 8mm Mauser ammo. By changing the barrel and bolt I can shoot .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO ammo. Of course head space and timing settings need to be verified each and every time you change a barrel and/or bolt. But, that's a simple procedure and fully documented.

I keep my girl configured at all times with USGI components, with one exception. That exception is the use of an Israeli lock frame. To set/adjust timing when using a USGI lock frame, the user must use a vise, or two pair of pliers, to bend the trigger shank using the trial and error method. The Israelis had a better idea. When using their lock frame, the user can easily set the timing with a screwdriver and 3/8" box wrench. No bending of 70+ year old parts is needed. That method works for me.

Below are copies of the BATFE Form 5 and Form 1 that I mentioned above. I also added a picture of my buddy just after he ran a burst of .308 ammo through the old girl. He was one happy camper that day.

[MG34_Dan]

Now for some side stories:

During my restoration, I stumbled on extra pieces and parts that I just had to jump on. One was a USGI Anti Aircraft Elevator (just a pipe with top and bottom fittings) and an original, mint condition, Anti Aircraft front sight. Now that's a rare bird. The only time I have ever seen a picture of one of these in use, it was affixed to a '17A1 mounted on an AA elevator outside the bridge of a US Navy aircraft carrier. How appropriate as my old girl was originally issued to the US Navy.

 

When I got this '17A1 I was completely unaware of the extent of damage to the water jacket. The damage was completely covered up with body putty and paint. But, the water jacket did have multiple dents and dings on it that were not covered up. At one of our shoots, I was asking around for a recommendation of somebody who could remove those dents and dings. That was when a friend recommended Karl Kurkey. It seems that Karl specialized in the restoration of damaged WWI German firearms and was well known for his work. The person who recommended Karl said he, Karl, had done a fabulous job cleaning up the water jacket on an MG08. I called Karl the next morning and made an appointment to have him look at my '17A1.

 

I made the 3+ hour drive from Austin to Houston with my old girl and presented it to Karl. He immediately took out an endoscope and stuck it down the water jacket. Karl then said "You do know the bottom of the barrel jacket is blown out, don't you?" I was shocked. He then took a wire wheel equipped grinder to the water jacket and completely removed all the body putty. It was only then that the extent of the damage was fully evident. Karl then stated this was definitely battle damage as he has seen this many times before on the German water cooled Maxims he had worked on. We discussed how this issue could be addressed and he threw out a couple suggestions for me to consider. We left it there and I made the 3+ hour drive back to Austin pondering what to do.

 

While this water jacket stuff was going on, I was also tracking down replacement parts for the tripod. That was why I called Jeff Prater in the first place. He had some tripod cross pins I needed. During my conversation with Jeff, I starting bitching about my water jacket situation. Jeff then stated he had a copy of the Colt documentation for water jacket manufacture. He said he was about to make a water jacket needed for the restoration of a 1928 Argentine Colt water cooled Browning. He stated he had just enough material to make two. He wanted t know if I would like him to make one for me also. I jumped on that offer. Hell, Rock Island Arsenal built my '17A1 using surplus repair/replacement parts from New England Westinghouse in the first place. New England Westinghouse manufactured these parts from Colt supplied blueprints and Jeff was using Colt blueprints too.

 

The newly machined water jacket arrived from Jeff a few days later and off to Karl's place I drove again. Karl looked over Jeff's water jacket and said it looked good. He would begin work on the replacement of the damaged water jacket in a day or two. I then asked him how he got into this line of work. He said he inherited all the tools and notes on how to do this from his grandfather. It seems that during the 1920s Karl's grandfather installed built in vacuum systems into the homes of Houston's wealthy families. All these built-in vacuum systems consisted of steel tubing that was bent and soldered into place. I had no idea. Karl said that as a child he would accompany his grandfather when he did maintenance on these vacuum systems. His grandfather taught him how to use the specialized tools for working with tubing and correctly solder steel tubing joints and fittings. It's funny how things work out.

 

Attached are some pictures of the AA setup. I also attached a couple more pics from the same shoot where we were shooting some .308 ammo.

[MWalsh]

WOW! Amazing story and what a great looking gun! Really cool that you could rescue it and restore it to its original state. Such an iconic gun too.

[MG34_Dan]

Here are more details than anyone ever needs to know:

 

The biggest concern I had during my task was to makes sure that I got all the markings right. That was not an issue with the water jacket as the only markings I could find on the damaged, and to be replaced, water jacket were timing marks used to properly center it on the trunnion and front cap. Jeff Prater's newly constructed water jacket had identical timing marks. I'm guessing they were specified on the Colt documentation. But it wasn't so simple with the damaged left side plate (LSP).

 

The only marking I could find on my damaged LSP was a Flaming Bomb stamp on the upper edge directly above the front top plate rivet. No other markings were present. This was my main reason for contacting other RIA '17A1 owners. What I consistently found was that the '17A1s made for the initial September '41 order all seemed to have that same Flaming Bomb stamp on the LSP top edge at exactly the same location. But, RIA '17A1s manufactured subsequent to the initial order had that stamp at different and inconsistent locations. I believe RIA had three or four '17A1 orders. The weapon's serial number will tell you which order it was made for.

 

The next set of pictures will show you what I discovered. The first photo is of an RIA '17A1 currently residing in a Swiss museum. This '17A1 was not made for the first order. The Flaming Bomb is located on the left rear of top plate directly over the left rear rivet hole. The stamp is not on the LSP.

 

The second picture is from an RIA '17A1 sitting in a British museum. It also was not made for the first order, but was from the same order as the Swiss '17A1 show above. Now the Flaming Bomb stamp, along with the "P" firing proof stamp, is positioned on the left front of top plate behind the left front rivet hole. Funky to say the least.

 

Pictures three and four are from RIA '17A1s residing in private collections within the US. Both of these '17A1s were made for the first order. Notice both Flaming Bomb stamps are located on the LSP top edge over the front top plate rivet.

 

The fifth, and final, picture is of my '17A1 with its replacement LSP positioned directly below. You will notice that both my damaged LSP and the replacement have Flaming Bomb stamps on the top edge of the LSP directly over the front top plate rivet and rivet hole. To me, this indicates that my replacement LSP is correct for my RIA '17A1.

[Bob Hudson]

The devil is in the details for certain on this project. Thanks for sharing them.

[Chris_B]

Like Eddie Cochran said- that's something else

[MG34_Dan]

One final note of irony; I brought my '17A1 to one of our local MG shoots last Christmas, 2017. That shoot was attended by a US Army High Power Rifle shooter. He fell in love with my Browning. A couple weeks after the shoot, he contacted me and asked if I would like to bring it to one of the local Army bases so others could see and play with it. He told me that the US Army would supply all the ammo. Just bring belts and a belt loader along with me. A couple weeks later I was asked to come over to Camp Swift for a day of MG blasting. It was only then that I discovered that the high power rifle shooter was a full bird colonel. He must have had 20 soldiers there who wanted to shoot their grandfathers' water cooled Browning. Even the base commander wanted to do some blasting. Interestingly when I shoot my '17A1, I shoot out to 100 - 200 yards. These army types were shooting out to 600 - 800 yards. They even had spotters using binoculars. They were way too serious for an old fart like me. During this shoot I didn't fire a single shot and spent the majority of my time schooling the enlisted men on the use of an M1918 Browning Belt Loader. They were simply amazed with it.

The base commander thanked me profusely and even gave me his business card. The gate guards even came over and fired a few rounds. They were smiling like a kids in a candy shop.

There was a single USMC officer in the group and when he found out this was an ex-USMC weapon, he started to rub it into the US Army personnel.

Another interesting observation I had was the differences between those who wanted to shoot and those who wanted to run the belt loader. Those who wanted to shoot were macho types, while the belt loader types were techno geeks. The shooters were only interested in how to load and fire the weapon. The belt loaders wanted to know the mechanics of the belt loader and how to adjust everything. That's why I spent most of my time with the belt loader types. Their questions were numerous and very detailed.

I brought a small foldable camping seat with me. The army guys pushed it aside and only wanted to sit on the ground. When I pointed out their asses would be more comfortable on the foldable seat, they poo pooded my suggestion and sat in the dirt. I still can't figure that one out. Maybe it's a macho thing.

[kanemono]

Thanks for a great narrative on a great gun. And thank you very much for sharing the journey with us.

Dick

[bobgee]

Super tale of a wonderful restoration. Having lived in Houston for when years, I know Karl Kurkey, He is a Master in Weaponology! Semper Fi ! Bobgee

[phantomfixer]

I think it is great the Army wanted and let you bring the MG on post...it must have been a great treat to you for sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm...with all the news bashing guns in today's media, was refreshing to hear your story...

[MG34_Dan]

Trainers, Machine Gun (US 1917A1 M3 .22)

 

Uncle Sugar classifies this a "Trainer" when configured to a 1917A1 Browning machine gun.

Part 1.

 

So now that I have a WWII water-cooled machine gun, I obviously need to get it to run multiple calibers of ammunition. A 1917A1 was originally manufactured to fire 30.06. It was relatively straightforward to convert it to fire .308 and 8mm Mauser. When I learned that the US Army actually made a .22lr setup of it, I had to have one. But I only wanted an original setup. It took me three years to find all the pieces and parts for a complete setup.

This .22lr configuration is fully documented in Dolf Goldsmith's Browning Machine Gun Volume III.

 

The M3 setup was manufactured and used by US Army from 1942 to 1945. At the end of WWII their use was discontinued, and they were given to the National Guard. The National Guard very infrequently used them through 1951 and most were scrapped in the mid 1960s. At that time, nobody wanted nor cared about them, and they simply evaporated.

Here is what components are needed to complete an M3 setup.

 

The hardest part for me to find was the barrel. I stumbled upon it. The seller had no idea what it was, and I jumped on it.

 

I was able to locate the two original barrel nuts along with a barrel chamber. Here is the complete barrel assembly with those parts mounted. I have it sitting on an original US spare barrel bag.

 

Here is the "Cartridge Stop". It is in actuality a feed-way spacer. Here is mine sitting on a US Army weapon spare parts bag.

 

Here is my cartridge holder chute, complete .22 bolt assembly, and barrel extension with actuating piston attached.

 

Here is the holder bag with a couple recoil springs, spring rod, and a couple belt adapters and belt holders.

 

As an aside, the original use of the cartridge holder chute and holder bag was to be attached to Browning 1919A4s within armored vehicles and aircraft to hold spent cartridge casings so they would not roll around within these vehicles.

So now that I found all the correct parts for my 1917A1, I needed some way to store and transport all the above pieces. I could not find any documentation of what was used during WWII, but I found a Vietnam era radio antennae transport case that works great.

 

[MG34_Dan]

Part 2.

I was unable to find the original US Army documentation on the disassembly and reassembly of the M3 setup, but I was able to find this documentation for the M4 setup. While the M3 setup is for use with a water cooled 1917A1, the M4 setup is for use with an air cooled 1919A4. The documentation between the two setups are nearly identical. Here is the M4 disassembly and reassembly documentation.

 

Now for the final component of these setups. That part is the ammo carrier and adapters. There are three compeonts needed for each round of .22lr ammo being fed.

 

 

 

I have two 250 round cloth belts with the holders and adapters installed. Here is a front and back view of one belt.

 

 

I also have a pair of 100 round belted .22lr ammo using metal links.

 

I'm still trying to find a PDF of an original US Army manual for the M3. The US Army publication number is 'ORD 9 SNL A-48'.

The cost of original US Army M3, M4, and M5 conversion setups are prohibitive. It is rare to find a complete setup all together in one package. One needs to scrounge all over creation. Also, the cost of the .22lr ammo adapters, holders, and clips is on the high side. Those parts are somewhat available at the usual sources, Sarco, Numrich, Apex, etc. On average it will cost you $5 per .22lr round position. That's not including the cost of the .22lr ammo itself. A 250 round cloth belt setup will cost ~$70 for the cloth belt and $1000 for the holders, clips, and adapters. If you do not have a Browning Belt Loader, you will then spend an entire month slipping those 250 adapters into the belt itself. A working Browning Belt Loader will set you back another $1250. If you intend to use metal links instead of cloth belts, 250 links are only ~$25. But now you have the challenge to fit the adapters into the links. You will know what pain is in punctured and ripped fingers. But the scars will always remind you to spend the money use cloth belts for your ammo feed.

 

That's about all I have for such a rare setup.

 

 

 

[robinb]

I own an M4 conversion kit, and I use cloth belts. Loading a belt by hand takes 2 1/2 hours.

[MG34_Dan]

11 hours ago, robinb said:

I own an M4 conversion kit, and I use cloth belts. Loading a belt by hand takes 2 1/2 hours.

How do you like your M4 kit?  What .22lr ammo do you use?

 

Here are a couple better pictures of the .22lr cartridge holder setup.

 

 

In the above M4 documentation there is a reference made to a "Cartridge Seating Fixture".  I could not find any picture of such an animal in any official US manual.  But one is pictured in Dolf Goldsmith's Browning Machine Gun Volume III.

 

 

[robinb]

It is finicky, but worked best with Remington or Winchester Wildcat ammo. My seating tool is just a pair of Channellock pliers.

[MG34_Dan]

1 hour ago, robinb said:

It is finicky, but worked best with Remington or Winchester Wildcat ammo. My seating tool is just a pair of Channellock pliers.

Is your 1919 full auto or semi auto?

[robinb]

It's full auto.

[MG34_Dan]

1 hour ago, robinb said:

It's full auto.

Do you have any real USGI documentation for your M4 conversion?  Any for the M3 conversion?

[robinb]

My M4 kit came to me in the original Buffalo Arms box from WW2. The barrel has a floating chamber. Most parts are BA marked. 

The bolt is lightened to work with the lighter .22 caliber load. 

[robinb]

Copies of the SNLs. And the chute that clamps to the bottom of the receiver to direct the empties into the canvas catch bag.