D-Day Helmet Grouping Navy Corpsman

[sigsaye]

I understand where your coming from. As the daughter said, this is what he carried throughout his time in the service.

 

Also, if you think about it, the heat stamp number is pretty accurate for the d day time frame. Im not sure exactly when he enlisted but Im assuming it was in 1943- 1944 being he was 18 when hitting the beaches of Normandy.

 

Also, if he was issued a new helmet late in the war, I would expect it to be in a bit better condition. This helmet is very salty. I would also expect it to be a later model helmet. Possibly a swivel bail. Just a thought.

 

Does anyone know what beach and sector foxy 29 was assigned? Very happy to know he was apart of the famous foxy 29.

 

 

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. Except for Naval forces assigned to shore Combat Units, Sailors are not issued helmets. They go to the ship. They go in racks and lockers. When you get to the ship, you mostly just grab one out of a rack at a battle station. People who go to a Small station, like Corpsmen will find a helmet, adjust it to fit, put their name on it and keep it. Maybe this is the helmet he got in the very beginning. I was issued a full set of gear at one unit I was at ( old M-56, canvas gear). When I transferred and went to turn it in, they told me to keep it or through it away, as they had up graded to newer gear and had already written my stuff off. It happens.

[Screamingeagles101]

 

Put the pack together. Looks good.

 

 

 

 

 

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[SEABEE SON]

Nice grouping!

 

 

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[Screamingeagles101]

Nice grouping!

 

 

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Thank you

 

 

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[swmdo]

. No. They were in the system. I found one on the Kitty Hawk, in a rack in 1973. The rest I dealt with for the next 26 years were swivel bales.

You are a wise old salt! Always enjoy your wisdom.

[jguy1986]

If it sold for 1000 then that's a crazy high offer.

 

For a helmet and a back pack.

 

Scream took a chance as there is no telling what the history is behind the helmet.

Not quite. The listing mentioned him being a D-Day pharmacist mate and I found him on the Foxy 29 muster rolls after about 5 minutes of searching on Ancestry.

[manayunkman]

A case where the story is worth more than item.

[anton67]

Another example of EBay back-door dealings.

I guess you can not trust that an auction will run its course on EBay.

This is a great argument for - Why shouldn't I make a back-door offer?

[Bugme]

ADMIN NOTICE: Enough about the "back door" eBay deals and auctions ended early guys. I personally don't like them either but, this is a discussion about the helmet, not how it was obtained. Start a new thread about this issue and multiple others like it if it bothers you. Keep this thread on topic.

[Pegasus6]

Nice group! Love when history comes together with some research/muster rolls and such.

[Burning Hazard]

Pretty sweet looking set! hope to see more info surface on the vet.

 

Pat

[Screamingeagles101]

Thank you for the kind words. I will be sure to keep you in the loop with the uniforms and anything else I can acquire from the family.

 

 

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[1966ww2collector]

ADMIN NOTICE: Enough about the "back door" eBay deals and auctions ended early guys. I personally don't like them either but, this is a discussion about the helmet, not how it was obtained. Start a new thread about this issue and multiple others like it if it bothers you. Keep this thread on topic.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/275994-ebay-to-backdoor-deal-or-not-to-backdoor-deal-that-is-the-question/

 

Here is a "Backdoor" topic I started a couple of years ago.

[HelmetguyCT]

Awesome provenance

[Screamingeagles101]

Guys quick question, I want to obtain his full military service records. I understand now that they have been released?

Where can I obtain them and how much are they?

 

Thank you.

 

 

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[stealthytyler]

I use Golden Arrow Research... he charges around $75 I think. If that is too expensive, you can order them directly from St Louis Archives...not sure how long it takes but it might be cheaper.

[ArchangelDM]

Guys quick question, I want to obtain his full military service records. I understand now that they have been released?

Where can I obtain them and how much are they?

 

Thank you.

 

 

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Geoff at Golden Arrow

 

Hes your man, does all my work for me

[stealthytyler]

average turnaround time is 2 weeks

[US82Bravo]

"Leon was a Corpsman who stormed the beaches of Normandy on June 6, 1944."

 

 

LST-46 arrived off the coast of France 7 June 1944 whereupon it anchored in a Transport Area, Utah Sector at 1211 hours. Here is the entry from the ' War Diary Of The Commanding Officer' for the period 1 June 1944 to 30 June 1944 -

As a member of the medical group aboard LST-46, it is unlikely that he 'stormed the beaches' on June 6.

Document excerpt from fold3.com

Larry

 

[Screamingeagles101]

"Leon was a Corpsman who stormed the beaches of Normandy on June 6, 1944."

 

 

LST-46 arrived off the coast of France  7 June 1944 whereupon it anchored in a Transport Area, Utah Sector at 1211 hours.  Here is the entry from the ' War Diary Of The Commanding Officer' for the period 1 June 1944 to 30 June 1944 - 

 

{style_image_url}/attachicon.gif LST46.jpg

 

 

 

 

As a member of the medical group aboard LST-46, it is unlikely that he 'stormed the beaches' on June 6.

 

Document excerpt from fold3.com

 

 

Larry

 

 

 

His obituary says, He landed on June 6, 1944.

 

Does it get any more solid than that ...?

 

Yes, we can speculate a number of different things but we will never know what actually transpired. Maybe he was on LST 46 at a different time in the ETO. I’m going to listen to the Family and obituary.

 

He was apart of Foxy 29 who was there on June 6 1944

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

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[hink441]

I would trust the deck log over an obituary. There is no shame in the service of LST-46, they just arrived on the 7th and provided much needed material aid and comfort for the wounded.

 

I would be proud to own this helmet, it is possible that this is the Okinawa helmet.

 

Chris

[hink441]

As a follow up, when you get his records you will have his definitive history.

 

Chris

[Dave]

His obituary says, He landed on June 6, 1944.

 

Does it get any more solid than that ...?

 

Yes, we can speculate a number of different things but we will never know what actually transpired. Maybe he was on LST 46 at a different time in the ETO. I’m going to listen to the Family and obituary.

 

He was apart of Foxy 29 who was there on June 6 1944

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

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Having written a book where I tracked down many of the 217 men I wrote about via their obituaries, I can tell you that I saw incorrect obituaries many, many times (to the point of even getting the person's branch of service wrong!). Remember, it's not the person who lived the experience writing the obituary, but their family - and the family's writing the obituary based purely on anecdotal sources...stories the veteran used to tell, or perhaps mentioned from time to time. Landing on D+1 on Omaha Beach could have very, very easily morphed into "When we were fighting in Normandy in June 1944" which to a family member who wasn't a savvy military historian meant he was there on June 6th (for 99% of people "fighting in Normandy" instantly equates to the beach landing scene in Saving Private Ryan...even though we fought in Normandy for quite some time). That one comment, viewed through the lens of a non-historian, could then be taken with a flourish for his obituary as "stormed the beaches of Normandy" on June 6th.

 

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but only his actual service record will serve as ground truth for what he did. Combine that with the deck log from the ship he was attached to, and you'll have a pretty clear picture of what he did or did not do.

 

For example, I bought a group of medals from the grandson of a veteran three days ago. We've been e-mailing about his grandfather. Here are some excerpts of our correspondence yesterday:

MY MOTHER WAS JUST TELLING ME THAT HER DAD ***** WAS IN THE OSS PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE U.S. ARMY AIR CORP. THE REASON THAT **** DID NOT TALK ABOUT WWII IS BECAUSE WE KNOW NOW THAT HE WAS A SPY AND WAS SWORN TO SECRETY. HE WORKED THROUGH EASTERN AIR LINES IN CHICAGO AT MIDWAY AS HIS COVER. HE SPOKE FLUENT GERMAN, SPANISH, PORAGUESE, AND DURING THE 60'S AND 70'S HE WAS A LANGAGE PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITY OF *******.

So...that came straight from the family. Was he really a spy? Did he really work for the OSS? Luckily, his service record should be intact and I am having Geoff pull it for me. Only that document will actually tell us what he reall did or didn't do.

Back to the helmet...service records are source documents. Obituaries are written from hearsay, and family memories are often incorrect. Don't bet the farm until you have the guy's actual record in hand.

[Screamingeagles101]

 

 

Having written a book where I tracked down many of the 217 men I wrote about via their obituaries, I can tell you that I saw incorrect obituaries many, many times (to the point of even getting the person's branch of service wrong!). Remember, it's not the person who lived the experience writing the obituary, but their family - and the family's writing the obituary based purely on anecdotal sources...stories the veteran used to tell, or perhaps mentioned from time to time. Landing on D+1 on Omaha Beach could have very, very easily morphed into "When we were fighting in Normandy in June 1944" which to a family member who wasn't a savvy military historian meant he was there on June 6th (for 99% of people "fighting in Normandy" instantly equates to the beach landing scene in Saving Private Ryan...even though we fought in Normandy for quite some time). That one comment, viewed through the lens of a non-historian, could then be taken with a flourish for his obituary as "stormed the beaches of Normandy" on June 6th.

 

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but only his actual service record will serve as ground truth for what he did. Combine that with the deck log from the ship he was attached to, and you'll have a pretty clear picture of what he did or did not do.

 

For example, I bought a group of medals from the grandson of a veteran three days ago. We've been e-mailing about his grandfather. Here are some excerpts of our correspondence yesterday:

 

MY MOTHER WAS JUST TELLING ME THAT HER DAD ***** WAS IN THE OSS PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE U.S. ARMY AIR CORP.  THE REASON THAT **** DID NOT TALK ABOUT WWII IS BECAUSE WE KNOW NOW THAT HE WAS A SPY AND WAS SWORN TO SECRETY. HE WORKED THROUGH EASTERN AIR LINES IN CHICAGO AT MIDWAY AS HIS COVER. HE SPOKE FLUENT GERMAN, SPANISH, PORAGUESE, AND DURING THE 60'S AND 70'S HE WAS A LANGAGE PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITY OF *******.

 

So...that came straight from the family. Was he really a spy? Did he really work for the OSS? Luckily, his service record should be intact and I am having Geoff pull it for me. Only that document will actually tell us what he reall did or didn't do.

 

Back to the helmet...service records are source documents. Obituaries are written from hearsay, and family memories are often incorrect. Don't bet the farm until you have the guy's actual record in hand.

Thank you, I will be obtains his records.

 

Thanks.

 

 

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[rob590ert]

As previously stated, obtaining his service record is the single best resource for finding service dates and locations, assuming his file is intact. The page that was posted showing the deck log, is hard to argue with. The US military was meticulous with their paperwork, and it is with almost full certainty that if it says it arrived on June 7, it arrived on June 7. Not saying that errors didnt happen because they certainly did.

 

When we collect these items, specifically named items, part of the joy is researching the vet and figuring out a story. Sometimes the story is muddied because the information is incomplete, most times it is. However, there are tons of resources out there, Fold3, Ancestry, Golden Arrow, National Archives, etc. They have been listed here time and time again.

 

There is a mind numbing amount of collective knowledge on this forum, and if you read into it, you know who you can trust and who you cant. If you feel like you cant trust what anyone says here, heres my advice. Sign up for Fold3, sign up for Ancestry, GOOGLE, email the National Archives for operational records and email Golden Arrow for the enlistment files. Because every single time you post a new item, you ask others to do your research for you, and then when people post their results, you basically discredit them because you have this grandiose idea that your item is something it isnt.

 

You want rock solid provenance? Buy a helmet directly from the veteran himself that wore it. Maybe he will tell you where he was and when he was there, and it would be hard to argue with that. As was previously stated, a lot of times the family only knows bits and pieces, a lot of it hearsay. You know why its hearsay? because a lot of times the veterans came back and didnt talk about their experiences much if at all.

 

I know of guys who spend hundreds of hours a YEAR researching vets, and operational records for their divisions, times, dates, locations, etc. That is dedication, and that is a labor of love. Dedication to this hobby doesnt consist of buying an item, and claiming its something it isnt while not doing any research, and passing it along when it's found to be something that it's not. Putting facts behind an item or grouping allows that history to be understood, and also allows the chance for that history to follow that item as it changes hands.

 

Robert