Cowboy4 Posted April 3, 2018 Share #1 Posted April 3, 2018 I have been meaning to post this for a while. I purchased this sword about 30 years in South Boston from an estate sale. I used my Peterson book to identify and catalogue it; indeed sword #76 in the “The American Sword 1775-1945” of Harold Peterson, page 85, seems to be identical. It is an American sword influenced by the 1821 French model for infantry officers. Peterson’s book did not show the scabbard. Through the years I saw similar swords and most of them were identified the same: “Non-Regulation, #76 Peterson”; some had a leather scabbard, some had a steel scabbard, all of them with two rings. My sword is the only one with a ring-less scabbard and with a frog-type attachment (I have no doubts this scabbard belongs to this blade). So here is my question, have you ever seen this type of scabbard on this type of sword ? Do I have a Civil War sword or something else ? Perhaps older ? Thank you in advance for your help and opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share #2 Posted April 3, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share #3 Posted April 3, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share #4 Posted April 3, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted April 3, 2018 Share #5 Posted April 3, 2018 Beautiful sword. Love the etched panels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horseclover Posted April 3, 2018 Share #6 Posted April 3, 2018 Very nice, I am surprised there is no us retailer marking. Look closely at the guard, on the blade side for possibly a French furbisher's cartouche. If not, it was more likely to have been an export from Solingen and the scabbard fitting kind of points to that. Cheers GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted April 3, 2018 Share #7 Posted April 3, 2018 "So here is my question, have you ever seen this type of scabbard on this type of sword ? Do I have a Civil War sword or something else ? Perhaps older ? Thank you in advance for your help and opinions." I agree with everything that has been said so far about these non-regulation variations of this sword. Bottom line is that you have a French Model 1821 Infantry Officer sword made for the US market. This style of leather scabbard, worn in a frog, is French regulation. I have a sword like yours made in Germany by "PDL" with a plain blade, no French or US markings or etching, and a black leather scabbard. However, my scabbard is sewn with a top sewn seam (in the French fashion) rather than a seam on the back like yours. So, my sword is a German made example of the French regulation sword made for export to anyone who wanted such a sword... including the French. Your sword has etched US motifs on the blade. Therefore, it was seemingly made/retailed for the US market, most likely during the US Civil War. That sort of depends upon if the etching template was used by the maker/assembler or the retailer. The scabbard could be original to the sword or the sword could have had a steel scabbard with two suspension rings. I have another one of these swords with a plain blade retailed by "Horstmann of Philadelphia". The sword has a bright steel scabbard with two suspension rings. This sword was obviously made for the US market as well but may predate the US Civil War and was perhaps made for pre-war Militia use. I hope this is helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 3, 2018 Author Share #8 Posted April 3, 2018 Thank you all, especially Sarge, for the interest and the replies. Very helpful. I can confirm that there are no markings or names indicating the manufacturer or the importer. Just for the record, years ago another collector told me it could have been an early marine NCO sword (because of the scabbard typology), I strongly disagree with that opinion. Any speculations on the type of frog, how would have it looked ? Thank you again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted April 3, 2018 Share #9 Posted April 3, 2018 A really nice sword - I've always like these Mle1821-style swords. I think it is quite possible, if not likely, your sword is a pre-CW militia sword. I have a Horstmann Mle 1821 import which is stamped “HORSTMANN/BROS & CO” on the obverse ricasso, and “NEW YORK” on the reverse. Horstmann used this address marking from 1850-1852. The quill back blade and the etch pattern on your sword would suggest to me an early date, perhaps as early as the 1840s. The frog stud looks quite similar to those seen on the eagle heads with clam-shell guards from the 1840s - another indicator of possible early date. Just my speculation. I also agree the sword is not likely a USMC sergeant's sword. Although the Marines did wear their swords in brass mounted leather scabbards with a frog stud, by, at the latest, 1832, the sergeant's sword was standardized as the Widmann/Horstmann stylized eagle head pommel sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share #10 Posted April 4, 2018 Thank you very much for the information, much appreciated. I should have posted it sooner. I would be interested to see your model 1821, if/when you have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted April 4, 2018 Share #11 Posted April 4, 2018 Thank you very much for the information, much appreciated. I should have posted it sooner. I would be interested to see your model 1821, if/when you have the time. Here are a couple photos of mine: Here is a photo of an NCO wearing a Mle 1821 in a scabbard like yours with a frog stub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted April 4, 2018 Share #12 Posted April 4, 2018 Incidentally, I suspect the sword and sword belt were photographer props. Neither the sword nor the M1851 sword belt were appropriate for a sergeant. It is not uncommon to see such disconnects in studio portraits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted April 4, 2018 Share #13 Posted April 4, 2018 Here are a couple of pix of mine. Notice the Horstmann sword with a steel scabbard has a cavalry style blade rather than a regulation French Infantry style blade. Incidentally, the Horstmann sword has the remains of a silver paint coating, which is a sure sign of coming out of a GAR Hall display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reschenk Posted April 4, 2018 Share #14 Posted April 4, 2018 Sarge, does your sword with the frog have any maker marks? It would appear to be by the same maker as the one in the original post with the same design on the frog stud. Does it also have a quill back blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Share #15 Posted April 4, 2018 Reschenk and Sarge, once again thank you for the great info and pictures; I definitely should have posted this earlier. Nice swords ! Sarge I understand from your first post that your sword with the leather scabbard c/w frog is German made by PDL and that the blade has no etching; but I have the same question as Reschenk, does it have a quill back ? If yes it would mean that mine is also most likely German made, I guess I’ll never know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted April 5, 2018 Share #16 Posted April 5, 2018 Yes, the sword with the leather scabbard was made by Peter Daniel Luneschloss in Solilngen and is marked "PDL" in an oval on the blade ricasso. No other markings.. It does have a plain bright finished quill back blade with a run-out fuller and short ricasso. Here are some close up photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy4 Posted April 7, 2018 Author Share #17 Posted April 7, 2018 Thank you very much Sarge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now