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NAVIGATOR WING


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#1 cpatrick

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 07:36 PM

What do you guys think?

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#2 cpatrick

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 07:37 PM

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#3 36-tex

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 07:40 PM

My opinion is it is Real!!! Nice WWII era wing for a navigator. How far does the pin open?

#4 cpatrick

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 07:43 PM

I don't know...it's online...but I think I am going to jump at it!

(Yes?)

Chris

#5 cpatrick

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Posted 20 February 2007 - 07:46 PM

BTW, I need to get in touch with you about my next lot of insignia for you...

Chris

#6 Allan H.

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 08:16 AM

The navigator wing is indeed an original. I like the brass pin and would expect it to open a full 180 degrees.
Allan

#7 cpatrick

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 10:18 AM

Thank you guys for the advice. There was an ebay seller selling what looked to be his collection of wings. From the looks of his past auctions, it looks as though he had a long standing collection of WWII wings. He had two pair of Navigator wings, one for $40, and the other at $45. The pictures looked absolutely identical, so I went with the cheaper pair. Following 36's response on here, I took his word and bought one set. When I logged on today, and saw Allan's response, the other set was sold. RATS!!! I was going to buy both pair last night, but I held off becuase I was not 100% sure.

I know that these are pretty hard to find - more so than your pilot wing, right?

Chris

#8 BOB K. RKSS

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 11:25 AM

The navigator wing is indeed an original. I like the brass pin and would expect it to open a full 180 degrees.
Allan

WWII made Wing PINS had a stop built into them, & only Open 90 Degrees (not 180*) > that is one way to tell WWII made long pin-backs from the re-strikes (repros); which open 180 degrees. Anyway, Navigator wings are scarce, & $45.00, for an original, is a steal!

Edited by BOB K. RKSS, 21 February 2007 - 11:26 AM.


#9 David B

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 11:53 AM

WWII made Wing PINS had a stop built into them, & only Open 90 Degrees (not 180*) > that is one way to tell WWII made long pin-backs from the re-strikes (repros); which open 180 degrees. Anyway, Navigator wings are scarce, & $45.00, for an original, is a steal!


Not sure if the above statement is 100% correct. I've just checked all my wings and while most only open to 90 degrees, a couple open fully.
Perhaps they have become slightly loose over time??

This Amcraft pilot of mine opens all the way up but it's not a repro.

1.JPG
16.JPG

Edited by David B, 21 February 2007 - 11:53 AM.


#10 CNY Militaria

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 12:04 PM

WWII made Wing PINS had a stop built into them, & only Open 90 Degrees (not 180*) > that is one way to tell WWII made long pin-backs from the re-strikes (repros); which open 180 degrees. Anyway, Navigator wings are scarce, & $45.00, for an original, is a steal!


I was under the notion that was a rumor made by some collectors to scare others from buying real wings, hence lowering the price because they assumed to the 90 degree plus wings to be fakes. Is this true?

#11 Rattle

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 12:10 PM

I think it is not 100% true, but a pin opening not more than 70-90 degrees is always a good sign.

Regards,
Stephan

#12 David B

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 12:21 PM

I think it is not 100% true, but a pin opening not more than 70-90 degrees is always a good sign.

Regards,
Stephan


Yeah it's a good sign but not set in concrete, like I said the above pilot wings pin opens all the way up so if I go by the statements made then it must be a repro. The Amcraft looks perfectly fine to me so why does the pin open fully?...perhaps it is well used.

Dave

#13 Allan H.

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 12:24 PM

WWII made Wing PINS had a stop built into them, & only Open 90 Degrees (not 180*) > that is one way to tell WWII made long pin-backs from the re-strikes (repros); which open 180 degrees. Anyway, Navigator wings are scarce, & $45.00, for an original, is a steal!


Bob,
Your info would be correct if you were talking about Meyer made wings as the originals open to approximately 90% and the restrikes "flop" open to a full 180 degrees. I think that David B. effectively proved that point with his ORIGINAL Amcraft wing (anyone want to try to dispute the originality?).

We need to be VERY careful here to ensure that the info that we put out here on the forum is accurate. Too often, collectors fall into the trap that statement to specific items get blown into unsubstantiated sweeping statements that end up hurting the collecting community as a whole.

I do agree that $45 for an original PB sterling navigator wing is indeed a steal.
Allan

#14 BOB K. RKSS

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 03:53 PM

Perhaps that Amcraft wing has a replaced Pin. I'd still maintain that 99% of original WWII made U.S. Wings will only be found with pins that open strait up 90 degrees from the wing (not just Meyers)

#15 KurtA

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 04:09 PM

Bottom line - some originals open 90 degrees, some 180 degrees. Some fakes open 90 degrees, some 180 degrees. It's just one aspect of a wing to consider. By itself, it is not the end all final word on originality.

Kurt

#16 cpatrick

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 04:45 PM

Since some originals open at 90 degree's, and some open at 180 degreee's, does this not make that aspect of wing authentication invalid? I can tell you that with German badges, consideration goes into the quality of the pin, and drum assembly (US wings don't have a "drum"), and that would be one deciding factor. Is there a way that this could be used with US badges?

Chris

#17 CNY Militaria

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 06:01 PM

Not sure if this is the same, but I have a 100% original flight surgeon's gold wing from WWII, which opens 180 degrees. I don't recall the maker off hand however.

Justin

#18 cpatrick

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Posted 21 February 2007 - 06:21 PM

Thanks Justin! Since you acquire most of your uniforms directly from the veterans, I was going to see if you could tell us what is on your uniforms. The answer is there...and this thread has actually developed into something pretty interesting.

Chris

#19 David B

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:19 AM

Perhaps that Amcraft wing has a replaced Pin. I'd still maintain that 99% of original WWII made U.S. Wings will only be found with pins that open strait up 90 degrees from the wing (not just Meyers)


The wing does absolutely not have a replaced pin but looking at the hinge closely under a loupe I think it may be missing the stop that prevents it from opening fully...but as I don't have another Amcraft to compare it to I'm not sure.

Edited by David B, 22 February 2007 - 12:19 AM.


#20 David B

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:23 AM

Bottom line - some originals open 90 degrees, some 180 degrees. Some fakes open 90 degrees, some 180 degrees. It's just one aspect of a wing to consider. By itself, it is not the end all final word on originality.

Kurt


Well said, I agree with Kurt and Allan on this.

Dave

#21 BOB K. RKSS

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 02:51 AM

Of course, everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but if You want to be sure of WWII originals > stick with the 90* open long pins. I've aquired many Flyer's wings (direct from Veterans) in the last 28 years of collecting WWII, & they've ALL had 90* open pins. I've got 8 originals here in front of Me; by various makers (1 Command Pilot, 2 Pilots, 1 Navigator, 3 Air Crew, & 1 AirGunner) all with 90* open pins; with the flat edge "stop" built into the Hinge part of Pin (not rounded as found on repros, & restrikes). http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#22 Allan H.

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:27 AM

Of course, everyone is free to believe whatever they want, but if You want to be sure of WWII originals > stick with the 90* open long pins.


Again, you need to be careful with the info as this is NOT a 100% catch all. Once the fakers figured out that collectors look for 90 degree stops on the pins, they started to incorporate them into their fakes.
The bottom line is that you need to study your area of collecting and realize that there is no such thing as an absolute in this hobby.

For those of you that want to believe that if the pin "flops" to 180 degrees, then the wing is a fake, I am morethan willing to buy these "fakes" from you. Of course, I want to pay fake prices!
Allan

#23 Paul C.

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 08:10 AM

OK I'll throw my 2 cents in. I have original wings that open 45, 90 and 180 degrees. That by itself is NO indication of originality. I have had numerous Amcraft wings and none of them that I can remember had pins that opened to 90 degrees, all opened to 180. The 90 degree rule is a nice starting point, particularly with Meyer wings. On the other hand one of the best fakes I have ever seem (an LGB wing) had a 45 degree pin, with a stop, die struck etc. How did I determine it was fake, an older collector friend remembered them coming out in the mid 1970's and fooling a lot of people. The moral of the story, network with other collectors, get second options; look at collections of people you trust. And BTY great price on the totally good Nav wing! If you find one at the SOS for under 125.00 I would be surprised!

Edited by Paul C., 22 February 2007 - 08:11 AM.


#24 Paul C.

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Posted 22 February 2007 - 08:13 AM

Allan,

I would like to get in on that "fakes" buy too! :D

Paul

#25 Nack

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 01:55 PM

Not navigator wings, but wings nonetheless. I am new to US collecting, and bought these not even thinking about if they were real http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/nerv0003.gif

Are these 1) real 2) WWII? Many thanks in advance.

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