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1930's AAC Wings ? Opinions Please


Paul S
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Hi Paul,

 

Its is hard to know for sure. In general, compared to the huge number of pilots trained in WWII compared to the relatively low numbers trained between the wars, likely any wing from that era is a WWII wing, just based on probabilities. Still, the first one seems like it could easily be a pre-war pattern. The second one is clearly a WWII vintage pattern as it shows up in a number of ratings that were only used in the 40's (e.g. glider, service, liaison).

 

Still, nice wings.

 

Patrick

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I agree with pfrost. The 2nd is definitely WWII era but the first looks a bit older to me.

 

 

I would like to see that second wing in some of the other ratings............that badge is a 30's pattern. Are you confusing this badge with the AMCRAFT pattern? I realize that a large number of the thirties bages went on to be struck and used during WW2.

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Hi Patrick,

 

Thanks for your input...here is a nice Liaison Pilot wing in the #2 design...I forgot the lettered wings fix the period to WWII when I started the thread. I am of the opinion this may be an early Bell production. It is the only wing other than Bell that shows a surface treatment similar to the etching on the feathers and it seems to share the same brass pin arrangement.

post-3515-1227145451.jpg

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Here is another one I think could be an older wing...any comments on it? Similar to Eby in its delicate and well executed detailing, but a smaller center device.

post-3515-1227145757.jpg

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HI Paul,

 

I just picked one up similar to the first one listed. I will see about getting some photos up as I am behind is posting recent additions. The strang thing with my wing is that is has a rather large incised sterling mark in the center and what appears to be a ground off makers mark on the tight wing. You can just make out the first part of the letter which is a G?

 

I see about taking a quick photo to post.

 

John

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Paul,

 

Not sure who I was talking too about the number of pilot wing variations but n ot that long ago 20 different types in you collection was considered good. I think if you review the wing section you are likely to find more than that.

 

As for Eby - Fox I can not say I have ever seen anything but the pilots wings. Maybe someone else can provide some examples...

 

John

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Paul,

 

Not sure who I was talking too about the number of pilot wing variations but n ot that long ago 20 different types in you collection was considered good. I think if you review the wing section you are likely to find more than that.

 

As for Eby - Fox I can not say I have ever seen anything but the pilots wings. Maybe someone else can provide some examples...

 

John

 

I think it was Art Gregg who told me that he had counted something like 150 different variations of WWII pilot wings alone!

 

Patrick

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150! Jeez well I better get cracking I have lots of wings to buy ;) Actually I can imagine that this number includes minor variations of major patterns matbe even including the type of fittings i.e. CB or PB.

 

How many do you have Dr? I bet no more than 149.5 lol

 

John

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Here are a couple of wings I saw recently...are they 1930's vintage or just an obscure maker WWII?

These were sold by "5318" on eBay. They date from the mid-20's and 30's.

 

Service pilot wing. Have seen these in glider and liaison.

:unsure:

Look again, it comes close perhaps but it's not the same pattern.

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These were sold by "5318" on eBay. They date from the mid-20's and 30's.

:unsure:

Look again, it comes close perhaps but it's not the same pattern.

 

Hi Cliff,

 

I do see the differences between the Pilot and Service Pilot--not obvious from a cursory glance.

 

A couple of followup questions, would you think the wing in the #7 posting is of the same pre-war period? And do you have any opinion on my comment w.r.t. the Liaison Pilot wing surface treatment being related to Bell's design approach?

 

Paul S

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Hi Cliff,

 

I do see the differences between the Pilot and Service Pilot--not obvious from a cursory glance.

 

A couple of followup questions, would you think the wing in the #7 posting is of the same pre-war period?

Hi Paul,

 

The wing in #7 post is a beautiful badge and you are fortunate to have it. The long pin and locking device on the back are real attention getters and strongly suggest that the badge is pre-WW2.

And do you have any opinion on my comment w.r.t. the Liaison Pilot wing surface treatment being related to Bell's design approach?

Paul S

Is the overall design of the Liaison Pilot wing in #6 post really the same as the overall design for #2? Well, maybe close. :unsure:

 

Could its surface treatment make it related to the “Bell” pattern badges? Unless we know for sure why speculate? Both it and the “Bell” patterns are very nice designs but we need to remember that 65 years ago there were a large number of highly skilled and very talented die-makers still employed by the jewelry trade capable of producing all the many fine looking wing badges we so admire. ;)

 

-cp

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Hi Paul,

 

The wing in #7 post is a beautiful badge and you are fortunate to have it. The long pin and locking device on the back are real attention getters and strongly suggest that the badge is pre-WW2.

 

Is the overall design of the Liaison Pilot wing in #6 post really the same as the overall design for #2? Well, maybe close. :unsure:

 

-cp

 

Thanks for your insight, Cliff. I hadn’t thought much about individual wings die makers being particularly mobile, but it does mirror a few known moves of such highly skilled designers from one sterling flatware firm to another in the late 19th to early 20th C.

 

One highly skilled designer in particular moved from Tiffany to a small Seattle maker during this period and caused the Seattle maker’s quality to improve so markedly that you can easily determine the demarcation point even today.

 

Of course there is always the possibility that a die maker from one firm simply copying the work of another designer that he liked and in so doing introducing slight variations in the final product.

 

Below is a close view of a pilot wing, though not #2 above, and the Liaison Pilot that is shown above that shows a few small differences...although I could be convinced that the pilot wing was struck from a worn die that might account for some filling in of the result. This picture also better shows the slightly different surface treatment used on the "L" wing from the Bell wings...it's more like the surface of a cantaloupe, than the more linear chasing of the Bell wings.

post-3515-1227367147.jpg

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Paul,

 

Thanks for posting the photo that points out some of the things CP had posted about. The worn die theory has merit but I think I would also consider a few other factors:

 

1) Quality of the silver

2) Skill of the person workng the machine that day

 

Now what jumps out at me and goes counter to the worn die is the fact that the detail in the shield is not worn yet the area we are focused on shows a marked difference in that the pilots wing has more rounded i.e. softer style vs. the very sharpe or crisp style of the other wing along with the difference in the extra detailing in the feathers.

 

The quality appears much higher in the LP wing... another example of this is the left over bit of silver in the top vein of the right wing.

 

 

Just some Saturday morning thoughts :)

 

John

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The thing to remember (IMHO) is that these are NOT the same dies, so it is reasonable to expect that the wings will have some variations because the dies are two different things. As I understand it, by WWII, most dies were not being carved by hand anymore. I am no expert, but I believe that this article on Wikipedia does a good job of describing how dies were cut.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_making

 

But, clearly, by almost any reasonable measure of comparison, these wings are just about as close a match to each other as can be possibly expected from two wings that came from two different dies. Sure, some small variations in curvature or sharpness of detail or slight changes in subtle detail exist, but that really seems to be excessive nit picking to conclude that they are not the same pattern. For example, the most glaring differences, ie that one is a pilot wing, one is a service pilot wing and one is a liaison pilot wing, doesnt seem to bother anyone. For example, the 1st pattern Luxenberg's all share a similar pattern of wing feathering, but no one would reasonably be able argue that because one is wing has the pilots shield and other has the observer "O", they are different patterns!

 

Patrick

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  • 3 weeks later...
Here are a couple of wings I saw recently...are they 1930's vintage or just an obscure maker WWII?

The wings depicted at the start of the thread were from my collection......in fact those ARE my pictures. Both wings are Pre-War. When I sold them they had resided in my collection for 30+ years. Hope that this will help.

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The wings depicted at the start of the thread were from my collection......in fact those ARE my pictures. Both wings are Pre-War. When I sold them they had resided in my collection for 30+ years. Hope that this will help.

 

Hi Will,

 

Thanks for the information. I'm just beginning to calibrate my eye to the pre-war wings and have picked a number of uncommon wings images from eBay listings for reference purposes and for future identification.

 

Paul S

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Here is another wing I've seen from time to time, sometimes with Meyers marks, sometimes just with an incised sterling, pin opens 180-degrees. I've been pursuaded that it is a restrike, detailing is soft, almost like a cast piece, but not unlike other early Observer wings. Good age and patina on it.

 

Question: Any idea when and where these came from?

 

Question: Are any legitimate early Meyer wings marked in this manner--I've seen some other ratings, but not many?

 

Paul S

post-3515-1229430031.jpg

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Paul,

 

I recently picked up a couple interesting 30's observer wings of the pattern type one with a very faint Meyer stamp partially obscured the fitting base at the attachement point.

 

I hope to post them soon to show the examples plus and interesting bonus item I think you may like.

 

John

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is another older wing (I believe), the image taken from an eBay listing some time ago. Does anyone have any specific knowledge of its origin? Note the interesting detail in the radiator.

 

Paul S

post-3515-1230907294.jpg

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Here is another older wing (I believe), the image taken from an eBay listing some time ago. Does anyone have any specific knowledge of its origin? Note the interesting detail in the radiator.

 

Paul S

Paul, I believe that is one the badges made in Panama.........check with Cliff P. If I am correct the metal appears rather hard and probably does not polish up quickly. Still a good badge........and a nice variation.

 

Will M.

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