Jump to content


Photo

Milpar M7 with rounded back cut


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#26 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2018 - 06:51 PM

Here's an image of the tangs of my Colt blade marked assumed to be Imperial made bayonets.  They all have the square hole and un-sloted tangs.  On some of the bayonets the holes for the grip screws are counter-sunk, others are not.

 

attachicon.gifcolt:imperials.jpg

 

After several years of looking for more information about these bayonets, I'm still not too sure about what we really know about them versus what we've come to believe about them.

Thank you sactroop,

 

So am I correct that the back cut I keep reading about is not the definitive way to decide if a M7 is a military contract or commercial produced bayonet? And if there is there a way, how would you decide if you were looking for a military issue production M7? I noticed that there are small nuts versus the threaded hand guard. Is this a military or commercial feature? My Imperial/colt came with two 11010068 grips with two separate small black nuts.


Edited by PaulS, 19 March 2018 - 06:57 PM.


#27 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 19 March 2018 - 08:08 PM

Thank you sactroop,

 

So am I correct that the back cut I keep reading about is not the definitive way to decide if a M7 is a military contract or commercial produced bayonet? And if there is there a way, how would you decide if you were looking for a military issue production M7? I noticed that there are small nuts versus the threaded hand guard. Is this a military or commercial feature? My Imperial/colt came with two 11010068 grips with two separate small black nuts.

 

The back cut, in and of itself, is not a good indicator of whether an M7 is US military, foreign aid, or commercial.  However, if you have a BOC, Conetta, or FZR; they will always have 90° back cuts and are all US contracts. (you've already found out what happens when I use the word "always")  Milpar US military contracts will have a 90° back cut and those are always considered US military, but they made thousands of curved run out blades that are not supposed to be US contract M7s.

If you have an Imperial M7 (not Colt), the 1973 contract will have a 90° back cut, but the the military began to allow the curved run outs after that, so the later 1976 and beyond contracts will have curved run outs, and are US contract, but you cannot be sure.  Imperial made bayonets for other countries as well.

Ontario and General Cutlery will have the curved run outs and were produced for US contracts as well as commercial and foreign customers. You cannot tell the difference unless there is a welded cross guard (remove the grips), then you know for sure they are commercial.

The grips held together by screws and nuts are found on the Imperial/Colts.  They are also found on Eickhorn produced M7s. The rest of the M7s use the " threaded bushings" glued into the grips. 

So if you want to be sure you are getting a real US military M7 bayonet, find one of the US contractors: Milpar, Conetta, BOC, FZR, and Imperial with a 90° back cut. 

To help with the timeline, other than the Eickhorn made Colt M7s, all the other Colt marked M7s pre-date the aforementioned contractors.  Hope this helps.

Marv
 



#28 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 March 2018 - 04:00 PM

 

The back cut, in and of itself, is not a good indicator of whether an M7 is US military, foreign aid, or commercial.  However, if you have a BOC, Conetta, or FZR; they will always have 90° back cuts and are all US contracts. (you've already found out what happens when I use the word "always")  Milpar US military contracts will have a 90° back cut and those are always considered US military, but they made thousands of curved run out blades that are not supposed to be US contract M7s.

If you have an Imperial M7 (not Colt), the 1973 contract will have a 90° back cut, but the the military began to allow the curved run outs after that, so the later 1976 and beyond contracts will have curved run outs, and are US contract, but you cannot be sure.  Imperial made bayonets for other countries as well.

Ontario and General Cutlery will have the curved run outs and were produced for US contracts as well as commercial and foreign customers. You cannot tell the difference unless there is a welded cross guard (remove the grips), then you know for sure they are commercial.

The grips held together by screws and nuts are found on the Imperial/Colts.  They are also found on Eickhorn produced M7s. The rest of the M7s use the " threaded bushings" glued into the grips. 

So if you want to be sure you are getting a real US military M7 bayonet, find one of the US contractors: Milpar, Conetta, BOC, FZR, and Imperial with a 90° back cut. 

To help with the timeline, other than the Eickhorn made Colt M7s, all the other Colt marked M7s pre-date the aforementioned contractors.  Hope this helps.

Marv
 

my newly arrived Milpar M7. Looks like it was sharpened at one time. What do you think? Original GI contracted bayonet?

Attached Images

  • 001.JPG
  • 003.JPG


#29 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 March 2018 - 04:02 PM

my newly arrived Milpar M7. Looks like it was sharpened at one time. What do you think? Original GI contracted bayonet?

 



#30 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 March 2018 - 04:02 PM

my newly arrived Milpar M7. Looks like it was sharpened at one time. What do you think? Original GI contracted bayonet?

 

Attached Images

  • 004.JPG


#31 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 22 March 2018 - 06:27 PM

Yes it does. It may have gone through a "repair and refurbish" arsenal overhaul (maybe by a foreign country).   An untouched M7 will have a white line of sharpening having been sharpened after being parkerized.

Marv

Marv



#32 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 March 2018 - 06:33 PM

Yes it does. It may have gone through a "repair and refurbish" arsenal overhaul (maybe by a foreign country).   An untouched M7 will have a white line of sharpening having been sharpened after being parkerized.

Marv

Marv

Thank you Marv for your repeated helpful responses. oh, One last photo of this bayonet.

Attached Images

  • 002.JPG

Edited by PaulS, 22 March 2018 - 06:35 PM.


#33 remman

remman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,087
  • 34 posts

Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:34 AM

Below are photos of two Milpar 1st contract M7s. Bayonet on top is a Milpar/Colt and on bottom is a  standard contract Milpar. Note that both bayonets have the sharpened edge parkerized as opposed to all other manufacturers who sharpened theirs after Parkerizing. As far as can be determined Milpar was the only one to do this and only on 1st contact pieces with the chevron pommel.

 

Attached Images

  • resized_002 (1).JPG
  • resized_004 (2).JPG


#34 remman

remman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,087
  • 34 posts

Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:38 AM

1st contract Milpar

Attached Images

  • resized_002 (3).JPG

Edited by remman, 23 March 2018 - 11:40 AM.


#35 remman

remman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,087
  • 34 posts

Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:43 AM

1st contract Milpar/ Colt

Attached Images

  • resized_002 (2).JPG


#36 SKIPH

SKIPH

    FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,773
  • 4,132 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NC

Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:07 PM

Checked my Milpar M7, does have the sideways "V" on the pommel. Guess it's legit.  SKIP



#37 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 March 2018 - 07:39 PM

Below are photos of two Milpar 1st contract M7s. Bayonet on top is a Milpar/Colt and on bottom is a  standard contract Milpar. Note that both bayonets have the sharpened edge parkerized as opposed to all other manufacturers who sharpened theirs after Parkerizing. As far as can be determined Milpar was the only one to do this and only on 1st contact pieces with the chevron pommel.

 

Awesome examples! Thank you remman.



#38 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 April 2018 - 06:06 PM

 

The back cut, in and of itself, is not a good indicator of whether an M7 is US military, foreign aid, or commercial.  However, if you have a BOC, Conetta, or FZR; they will always have 90° back cuts and are all US contracts. (you've already found out what happens when I use the word "always")  Milpar US military contracts will have a 90° back cut and those are always considered US military, but they made thousands of curved run out blades that are not supposed to be US contract M7s.

If you have an Imperial M7 (not Colt), the 1973 contract will have a 90° back cut, but the the military began to allow the curved run outs after that, so the later 1976 and beyond contracts will have curved run outs, and are US contract, but you cannot be sure.  Imperial made bayonets for other countries as well.

Ontario and General Cutlery will have the curved run outs and were produced for US contracts as well as commercial and foreign customers. You cannot tell the difference unless there is a welded cross guard (remove the grips), then you know for sure they are commercial.

The grips held together by screws and nuts are found on the Imperial/Colts.  They are also found on Eickhorn produced M7s. The rest of the M7s use the " threaded bushings" glued into the grips. 

So if you want to be sure you are getting a real US military M7 bayonet, find one of the US contractors: Milpar, Conetta, BOC, FZR, and Imperial with a 90° back cut. 

To help with the timeline, other than the Eickhorn made Colt M7s, all the other Colt marked M7s pre-date the aforementioned contractors.  Hope this helps.

Marv
 

Found another first contract Milpar M7 with a straight back cut. It has a slotted tang as I believe they are supposed to and came with a "WD" M8A1 scabbard with a "100" rack number. The grip screws may have been replaced at one time as there were no washers but there were indentations in the grips were washers once sat. The screw heads also have straight sides compared to other M7 grip screw heads which are rounded. Were there different styles of screws used? the threading seams correct and are not stripped. What do you think?

Found another first contract Milpar M7 with a straight back cut. It has a slotted tang as I believe they are supposed to and came with a "WD" M8A1 scabbard with a "100" rack number. The grip screws may have been replaced at one time as there were no washers but there were indentations in the grips were washers once sat. The screw heads also have straight sides compared to other M7 grip screw heads which are rounded. Were there different styles of screws used? the threading seams correct and are not stripped. What do you think?

Attached Images

  • 001.JPG
  • 002.JPG
  • 006.JPG

Edited by PaulS, 24 April 2018 - 06:20 PM.


#39 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 April 2018 - 06:07 PM

 

The back cut, in and of itself, is not a good indicator of whether an M7 is US military, foreign aid, or commercial.  However, if you have a BOC, Conetta, or FZR; they will always have 90° back cuts and are all US contracts. (you've already found out what happens when I use the word "always")  Milpar US military contracts will have a 90° back cut and those are always considered US military, but they made thousands of curved run out blades that are not supposed to be US contract M7s.

If you have an Imperial M7 (not Colt), the 1973 contract will have a 90° back cut, but the the military began to allow the curved run outs after that, so the later 1976 and beyond contracts will have curved run outs, and are US contract, but you cannot be sure.  Imperial made bayonets for other countries as well.

Ontario and General Cutlery will have the curved run outs and were produced for US contracts as well as commercial and foreign customers. You cannot tell the difference unless there is a welded cross guard (remove the grips), then you know for sure they are commercial.

The grips held together by screws and nuts are found on the Imperial/Colts.  They are also found on Eickhorn produced M7s. The rest of the M7s use the " threaded bushings" glued into the grips. 

So if you want to be sure you are getting a real US military M7 bayonet, find one of the US contractors: Milpar, Conetta, BOC, FZR, and Imperial with a 90° back cut. 

To help with the timeline, other than the Eickhorn made Colt M7s, all the other Colt marked M7s pre-date the aforementioned contractors.  Hope this helps.

Marv
 

 

 

Attached Images

  • 004.JPG


#40 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 April 2018 - 06:24 PM

Yes it does. It may have gone through a "repair and refurbish" arsenal overhaul (maybe by a foreign country).   An untouched M7 will have a white line of sharpening having been sharpened after being parkerized.

Marv

Marv

Found another first contract Milpar M7 with a straight back cut. It has a slotted tang as I believe they are supposed to and came with a "WD" M8A1 scabbard with a "100" rack number. The grip screws may have been replaced at one time as there were no washers but there were indentations in the grips were washers once sat. The screw heads also have straight sides compared to other M7 grip screw heads which are rounded. Were there different styles of screws used? the threading seams correct and are not stripped. What do you think? The pics are above this post.

 

 


Edited by PaulS, 24 April 2018 - 06:24 PM.


#41 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 24 April 2018 - 09:09 PM

I do not have many M7s, but of the ones I have, there are no screws that have straight sides like the one you show.  They may be out there though.

Marv



#42 Windraider

Windraider
  • Members
    • Member ID: 191,677
  • 41 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaiserslautern

Posted 07 September 2018 - 09:09 AM

Hello

 

I have a comparable Milpar M7. It comes from a military source.

 

There are more of these pieces. 

 

Attached Images

  • k-P1190400.JPG
  • k-P1190403.JPG
  • k-P1190404.JPG
  • k-P1190405.JPG
  • k-P1190413.JPG
  • k-P1190408.JPG
  • k-P1190409.JPG
  • k-P1190411.JPG
  • k-P1190412.JPG
  • k-P1190410.JPG
  • k-P1190416.JPG
  • k-P1190402.JPG


#43 Collector2

Collector2
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 162,214
  • 7 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 26 December 2018 - 10:46 PM

Hi,

Reading the forum above i notice that it is stated that the M7 Ontario has a curved back cut / run out like the Gen Cut. My Ontario has the near 90 deg. back cut, it is in its black Ontario M10 scabbard with a black leg tie and i believe that it is all correct.

All of the Ontario M7's i have seen have the similar near 90 deg back cut to mine. My M7 Gen Cut has the curved back cut the same as the Milpar photo's above.

Question is, does the Ontario have a near square back cut or a curved back cut, or are there both.

Terry



#44 sactroop

sactroop
  • Members
    • Member ID: 17,422
  • 2,269 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cascadia Fault

Posted 27 December 2018 - 11:04 AM

When Ontario's M7 contracts started the Government requirement for the radius back cut was already in place. 

IMHO, the Ontario's with the near 90˚ back cut started appearing after the U.S. Government started ordering M9 bayonets, just haven't found more than opinions yet to back that up.

Milpar stopped making knives and bayonets before the Government requirement changed to a radius back cut. The radius blades I've seen on M7's with MILPAR marked guards look different than early known Milpar blades in other ways than just the back cut.



#45 Collector2

Collector2
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 162,214
  • 7 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 30 December 2018 - 01:12 PM

Any idea of how many Ontario M7's were made with the curved back cut, i have found it hard to even find a photo of one, but the square back cut ones appear everywhere.

My Milpar M7 with 90* back cut has the bevel edge to the back of the blade, the chevron on the pommel and slotted tang. The Milpar M7 shown above with the curved back cut does have the slotted tang tho but everything else looks different, any idea of its vintage.



#46 Windraider

Windraider
  • Members
    • Member ID: 191,677
  • 41 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaiserslautern

Posted 31 December 2018 - 09:12 AM

I only know Ontario M7´s with a near 90˚ back cut.

 

Gen Cut produced M7 bayonets with curved and 90˚ back cuts.


Edited by Windraider, 31 December 2018 - 09:15 AM.


#47 Collector2

Collector2
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 162,214
  • 7 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 01 January 2019 - 09:55 PM

I have seen the Gen Cut with both back cuts on the Humes' Gen Cut page but have never seen a square back cut one for sale. Still a little confused about the Ontario back cuts tho.



#48 DeltaRecon226

DeltaRecon226
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 109,253
  • 18 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:23 AM

I just picked up this Milpar M7 with PWH scabbard. Would this bayonet be appropriate for a US Army Vietnam display circa 1967?

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#49 Windraider

Windraider
  • Members
    • Member ID: 191,677
  • 41 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kaiserslautern

Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:43 AM

Hello,

 

yes. MILPAR M7 were in use since 1964/65. 



#50 sactroop

sactroop
  • Members
    • Member ID: 17,422
  • 2,269 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cascadia Fault

Posted 08 March 2019 - 12:34 PM

I don't know if the controversy over Milpar marked M7's with radius backcut blades is settled one way or the other.  One of the things that tends to bother some collectors is that at least many of these radius back cut blades don't show any of the tell tale signs left on earlier Milpar blades which trace back to different processes that Milpar patented and used.  That combined with a story that Milpar sold off their over stock of parts to a large surplus company who assembled and sold them commercially as finished blades.  Some believe these blades are not used in Government contract bayonets.  I have an example of one of these Milpar's and as of now I don't know for sure what it maybe so I keep it with my curiosity knives for the time being.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users