Jump to content


Photo

Milpar M7 with rounded back cut


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#1 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2018 - 06:07 PM

  I have read that Milpar M7 bayonets with sloping back cuts are not real military issue M7 bayonets. I found this Milpar M7 with a rounded back cut that was released from military stocks. If this was released from military stocks does this mean Milpar M7's with rounded back cuts could be contracted bayonets? Did the Colt marked bayonets have rounded back cuts?

Attached Images

  • 003.JPG
  • 002.JPG
  • 001.JPG

Edited by PaulS, 10 March 2018 - 06:16 PM.


#2 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 10 March 2018 - 06:19 PM

Both the Imperial/Colt bayonets and the Milpar/Colt bayonets had rounded back cuts.  The contract Milpar M7s did not. However, Gary Cunningham used to suspect, that when a GI would lose an issued item, he might buy one from the PX and turn that one in. Maybe that's what happened here.  I love that tag. That's a great piece of history itself.

Marv



#3 SKIPH

SKIPH

    FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR

  • FORUM SUBJECT ADVISOR
    • Member ID: 7,773
  • 4,132 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NC

Posted 10 March 2018 - 07:18 PM

 Marv- I can't recall ever seeing M7s,  or any other bayonets being sold in any PX. Plus, bayonets were seldom issued, stayed in the arms rooms, and were accounted for. But, if a troop were to lose one, he could pick up one at a pawn shop, or gun show.  SKIP



#4 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2018 - 07:42 PM

 Marv- I can't recall ever seeing M7s,  or any other bayonets being sold in any PX. Plus, bayonets were seldom issued, stayed in the arms rooms, and were accounted for. But, if a troop were to lose one, he could pick up one at a pawn shop, or gun show.  SKIP

When I was in service our bayonets were like you mentioned, were rarely issued. If we were issued bayonets they were to be turned in by end of day as we could not store them in our rooms over night. The only time we could keep them over night is if we were deployed somewhere. The loss of a weapon of any kind was a serious offense, if one came up missing no one could go home until it was found and woe to the troop that lost it. This is why most arms rooms have arms room numbers on weapons especially weapons with no manufacturer serial numbers.


Edited by PaulS, 10 March 2018 - 07:44 PM.


#5 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2018 - 07:45 PM

Both the Imperial/Colt bayonets and the Milpar/Colt bayonets had rounded back cuts.  The contract Milpar M7s did not. However, Gary Cunningham used to suspect, that when a GI would lose an issued item, he might buy one from the PX and turn that one in. Maybe that's what happened here.  I love that tag. That's a great piece of history itself.

Marv

Thank you Marv for your insight response to my post!



#6 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 10 March 2018 - 08:47 PM

That all makes sense, sorry for the speculation.   One thing I might ask is if the pommel end has a "V", sideways or any way? That would indicate the first Milpar M7 contract. in the mid sixties. If THAT were the case, it would indeed be an interesting M7.  You could speculate all day on that. 

Marv



#7 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:10 PM

That all makes sense, sorry for the speculation.   One thing I might ask is if the pommel end has a "V", sideways or any way? That would indicate the first Milpar M7 contract. in the mid sixties. If THAT were the case, it would indeed be an interesting M7.  You could speculate all day on that. 

Marv

On the one I have pictured in this post, tha pommel does not have a "V" but a "." at the top between the left and right releases. (Right pic).

I do have another Milpar M7 and that one does have the "V" mark ( left pic). What can I interpret from this?

Attached Images

  • 004.JPG


#8 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:18 PM

That all makes sense, sorry for the speculation.   One thing I might ask is if the pommel end has a "V", sideways or any way? That would indicate the first Milpar M7 contract. in the mid sixties. If THAT were the case, it would indeed be an interesting M7.  You could speculate all day on that. 

Marv

Were the Milpar/ Colt contract M7 bayonets supplied to the military? If they were supplied to the military, is there any reason any left over blades from the Colt contract would not be used minus the Colt markings until exhausted.



#9 remman

remman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,087
  • 34 posts

Posted 10 March 2018 - 11:55 PM

The first contract  Milpar M7 bayonets with the sideways v (chevron) on the pommel end are made to mil spec with some interesting characteristics not found on later production. The blades have a distinctive stiletto like shape, the back or top of the blade has a bevel on each side and the blade is typically parkerized after sharpening. Per requirements it has the 90 deg. back cut and tang with lightening cuts.  I mention this because I have an example in my collection identical to the first contract with the addition of the 2-line Colt address making it a Milpar/Colt. I have seen several of this variant in the past but in 40+ years of collecting I can honestly say that except for a picture I have never seen a Milpar/Colt with the rounded or sloping back cut. I wouldn't think that very late Milpar production  would have Colt markings although anything is possible. I'd be interested to hear if any members have or have seen either of the two Milpar/Colt variants. 



#10 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 12 March 2018 - 09:05 PM

One of the reasons William Humes is so enamored with the M7 bayonet is that there are so many variations and more questions like these. There are still many unanswered questions out there.  To the point of Paul S's question, it is also possible that his M7 bayonet is a Military Aid Program bayonet that somehow fell into US military stores.  Just a possibility.

The reason I said that the Milpar/Colt bayonet has a curved back cut, is that the photos in William Humes' site and also Gary Cunningham's new book, show pictures of them with the rounded back cut.  However, if you examine Mr. Humes' photos: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/humes_m7_02.htm   you will notice that although one photo shows an Imperial/Colt and a Milpar/Colt side by side which are identical, in another photo comparison of the tang cut out of the Milpar/Colt VS. no cut outs for the Imperial/Colt, the Milpar/Colt has a 90° back cut.  It seems clear that the Milpar/Colt can be found with either style of back cut.

Was the Milpar/Colt a part of a military contract.  It has been suggested that Milpar (once they secured the first M7 contract) may have purchased some blades from Imperial to initiate production. As you state Paul S, maybe some of those blades were in different stages of manufacture and did not include the Colt logo.  Some also have suggested that Milpar and Colt were working out patent issues, as the Milpar contract got started and used the Colt logo on some of their blades.   More questions than answers.

Here's a photo of a Milpar/Colt which has a near 90° back cut, and though not shown, the other side of the blade has a full 90° back cut.  Also notice the beveled back of the blade, as pointed out by remman.

Marv

 

 

 

 

Attached Images

  • Milpar CRZ.jpg


#11 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 March 2018 - 03:28 PM

One of the reasons William Humes is so enamored with the M7 bayonet is that there are so many variations and more questions like these. There are still many unanswered questions out there.  To the point of Paul S's question, it is also possible that his M7 bayonet is a Military Aid Program bayonet that somehow fell into US military stores.  Just a possibility.

The reason I said that the Milpar/Colt bayonet has a curved back cut, is that the photos in William Humes' site and also Gary Cunningham's new book, show pictures of them with the rounded back cut.  However, if you examine Mr. Humes' photos: http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/humes_m7_02.htm   you will notice that although one photo shows an Imperial/Colt and a Milpar/Colt side by side which are identical, in another photo comparison of the tang cut out of the Milpar/Colt VS. no cut outs for the Imperial/Colt, the Milpar/Colt has a 90° back cut.  It seems clear that the Milpar/Colt can be found with either style of back cut.

Was the Milpar/Colt a part of a military contract.  It has been suggested that Milpar (once they secured the first M7 contract) may have purchased some blades from Imperial to initiate production. As you state Paul S, maybe some of those blades were in different stages of manufacture and did not include the Colt logo.  Some also have suggested that Milpar and Colt were working out patent issues, as the Milpar contract got started and used the Colt logo on some of their blades.   More questions than answers.

Here's a photo of a Milpar/Colt which has a near 90° back cut, and though not shown, the other side of the blade has a full 90° back cut.  Also notice the beveled back of the blade, as pointed out by remman.

Marv

 

 

Thank you you Marv for this post. Perhaps one day documentation will be found that finally answers these questions.

 

 

 



#12 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 March 2018 - 04:09 PM

The first contract  Milpar M7 bayonets with the sideways v (chevron) on the pommel end are made to mil spec with some interesting characteristics not found on later production. The blades have a distinctive stiletto like shape, the back or top of the blade has a bevel on each side and the blade is typically parkerized after sharpening. Per requirements it has the 90 deg. back cut and tang with lightening cuts.  I mention this because I have an example in my collection identical to the first contract with the addition of the 2-line Colt address making it a Milpar/Colt. I have seen several of this variant in the past but in 40+ years of collecting I can honestly say that except for a picture I have never seen a Milpar/Colt with the rounded or sloping back cut. I wouldn't think that very late Milpar production  would have Colt markings although anything is possible. I'd be interested to hear if any members have or have seen either of the two Milpar/Colt variants. 

Hello remman,

 

   Did all Milpar M7 bayonets have the "V" on the pommel? I have seen Milpar M7s with sharp back cut but no "V" on pommel. Is this a genuine Milpar M7 bayonet?



#13 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 16 March 2018 - 06:42 PM

Sorry to barge in, but it is my understanding that the chevron was only on the first Milpar contract.

Marv



#14 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 March 2018 - 08:21 PM

Sorry to barge in, but it is my understanding that the chevron was only on the first Milpar contract.

Marv

No need to be sorry. I am always glad to get knowledgeable feed back. Is/ are there any other marking/s or feature/s besides the "V" from the first contract and the usual mfg. stamp on the cross guard attributed to Milpar production M7s? I have not seen or heard of any. The Milpar M7 I might buy has no markings that I can see on the pommel.


Edited by PaulS, 16 March 2018 - 08:22 PM.


#15 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 March 2018 - 08:56 PM

Sorry to barge in, but it is my understanding that the chevron was only on the first Milpar contract.

Marv

Hello Misfit 45,

 

  I saw your post on Colt M7s and wanted to know your input on this possible Imperial/ Colt M7. It has a solid tang and a square hole for the cross guard bar. There is also a "P" at the top of the tang. Any idea what that mark is for? 

Attached Images

  • 002.JPG
  • 001.JPG
  • 003.JPG


#16 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 18 March 2018 - 01:30 PM

My Imperial/Colt has a "P" on the tang as well.  I have heard no comment on what that means. One way to Identify an imperial/Colt (among many) is that the middle of the "M" in M7" does not go down to the base line.  In fact, it rarely goes as far as the middle of the letter.  All Imperial M7s have the same "M7" mark. (see top M7 in pic)

Marv

 

Attached Images

  • Colt comparison font CRZ.jpg


#17 remman

remman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,087
  • 34 posts

Posted 18 March 2018 - 01:59 PM

Mine has an "O" stamped on the tang . Probably a stamping die identifier.



#18 sactroop

sactroop
  • Members
    • Member ID: 17,422
  • 2,269 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cascadia Fault

Posted 18 March 2018 - 06:32 PM

My Colt/Imperial's have A,H, and P.

 

Colt:imperial 1.jpg Colt:imperial 2.jpg Colt:imperial 3.jpg



#19 Misfit 45

Misfit 45
  • Members
    • Member ID: 26,996
  • 1,034 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 18 March 2018 - 08:05 PM

I never knew there were so many different tang marks!  I checked by other Imperial/Colt.  It has an "A". 

Marv



#20 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2018 - 10:10 PM

My Imperial/Colt has a "P" on the tang as well.  I have heard no comment on what that means. One way to Identify an imperial/Colt (among many) is that the middle of the "M" in M7" does not go down to the base line.  In fact, it rarely goes as far as the middle of the letter.  All Imperial M7s have the same "M7" mark. (see top M7 in pic)

Marv

 

Thank you Marv.

 

Are the square hole and rounded back cut features on my Imperial/ colt bayonet a G.I issue or commercial production bayonet?



#21 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2018 - 10:11 PM

My Colt/Imperial's have A,H, and P.

 

attachicon.gifColt:imperial 1.jpgattachicon.gifColt:imperial 2.jpgattachicon.gifColt:imperial 3.jpg

Thank you sactroop,

 

Are the square hole and rounded back cut features on my Imperial/ colt bayonet a G.I issue or commercial production bayonet?



#22 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 March 2018 - 10:12 PM

Mine has an "O" stamped on the tang . Probably a stamping die identifier.

Thank you remman,

 

Are the square hole and rounded back cut features on my Imperial/ colt bayonet a G.I issue or commercial production bayonet?



#23 remman

remman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 163,087
  • 34 posts

Posted 19 March 2018 - 08:47 AM

PaulS. I suspect that the Imperial blades with the square hole and sloping back cut were used for both military and commercial. I have 4 Imperial  bayonets with the above characteristics in my collection. The first is the Imperial/Colt which is pretty much accepted as being military contract. The second which is identical to the first lacks the Colt markings and is probably commercial. The other two have the Israeli acceptance mark  on the crossguard and are military contract. Those two have a D and a G on the tangs.



#24 sactroop

sactroop
  • Members
    • Member ID: 17,422
  • 2,269 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cascadia Fault

Posted 19 March 2018 - 12:16 PM

Here's an image of the tangs of my Colt blade marked assumed to be Imperial made bayonets.  They all have the square hole and un-sloted tangs.  On some of the bayonets the holes for the grip screws are counter-sunk, others are not.

 

colt:imperials.jpg

 

After several years of looking for more information about these bayonets, I'm still not too sure about what we really know about them versus what we've come to believe about them.



#25 PaulS

PaulS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,337
  • 151 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2018 - 06:51 PM

PaulS. I suspect that the Imperial blades with the square hole and sloping back cut were used for both military and commercial. I have 4 Imperial  bayonets with the above characteristics in my collection. The first is the Imperial/Colt which is pretty much accepted as being military contract. The second which is identical to the first lacks the Colt markings and is probably commercial. The other two have the Israeli acceptance mark  on the crossguard and are military contract. Those two have a D and a G on the tangs.

Thank you remman, Is the Israeli acceptance mark a Star of David? So am I correct that the back cut I keep reading about is not the definitive way to decide if a M7 is a military contract or commercial produced bayonet? And if there is there a way, how would you decide if you were looking for a military issue production M7? 




5 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users