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166th Infantry Guidon - eBay train wreck...?

Started by nirvana , Jan 21 2018 07:26 AM

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#26 patches

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 11:00 AM

I've not, I'm just lazy and I'm not sure that the interest is there. I post one or two here and there and let the rest hibernate.

I'm still piecing through the 211th artillery saga. It keys up a few questions in my brain. If it's true: What type of guidon would the missile battalion have been issued? When did the army begin using traditional artillery guidons again? They are using them in the present day.

This is all complicated by the fact that I have a "WW2" pattern guidon (green pole sleeve, with QMD tag) that has on it that rocket and cannon logo, placing it before the 1957 cutoff period that my one flag is marked to. It lacks the battalion marking. So where does it fit in? lol. The services pretty clearly used NOS flags from prior eras, so dating them from the tags and materials alone is useless.

I'm still piecing through the 211th artillery saga. It keys up a few questions in my brain. If it's true: What type of guidon would the missile battalion have been issued? When did the army begin using traditional artillery guidons again? They are using them in the present day.

 

Back then all Artillery Battalions, 1957-68, no matter what weaponry they used, used the Crossed Cannons with Upright Missile as collar insignia and on their guidons.

 

968-011.jpg

As an example, the 1st Battalion 30th Artillery (155mm Howitzer,Towed) during Operation Pegasus April 1968, the 1st Bn 30th Arty was a IFFV Artillery unit, and attached to the 1st Cavalry Division during this operation, the relief of Khe Sahn.



#27 patches

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 11:04 AM

And to add this, an official MEMO from a late 1968 25th Inf Div's newspaper I just now found, that explains the change in 1957 when the big super branch was created, and now in 1968 when the two specific weaponry battalions where to be spit into separate and distinct branches.

 

Arty Fields Get Distinct Insignias

   Separate insignia have been approved for the U.S. Army's two artillery branches.
   Officers in the Field Artillery Branch and enlisted personnel assigned to field artillery organizations will be authorized to wear an insignia consisting of two crossed field guns.
   This insignia was used by the Field Artillery Branch before January 2, 1957.
   Officers in the Air Defense Artillery Branch and enlisted personnel assigned to air defense artillery organizations will continue to wear the present Artillery Branch insignia, which consists of two crossed field guns and a missile.
   The names of artillery officers transferred to the new Air Defense Artillery Branch will appear on a special order scheduled for publication in November with an effective date of December 1, 1968.
   New insignia will be authorized for wear on effective date of the order.



#28 nirvana

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 03:54 PM

Well, this complicates things some.  I've got six of these style of guidons, marked to the 1st, 102nd, 189th, 211th and 263rd.  I'll be scratching my noodle for a while sorting through them, given the changes and so forth.  Hmm.



#29 patches

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 06:37 PM

Well, this complicates things some.  I've got six of these style of guidons, marked to the 1st, 102nd, 189th, 211th and 263rd.  I'll be scratching my noodle for a while sorting through them, given the changes and so forth.  Hmm.

I know it can be confusing, there were indeed Artillery units that did operate and man Air Defense weapons, but they were all lumped in with all Artillery units under the 1957 Combat Arms Regimental System or CARS, this would include Tube Artillery, both Towed and Self Propelled ( i.e. Armored) the only way one would be able to tell what type it was, was be the unit description or designator in parentheses at the end of the unit title. Plus soldiers who were selected (draftees) or volunteered (enlistees) for any one of those different types artillery would take their AIT at two different posts. The guys for Artillery that were to be Field Arty i.e. tube, and Ground to Ground Missile like the Sergeant Missile etc etc,  went to Fort Sill for AIT, guys for Air Defense weapons, that's Ground to Air Missile, and Automatic Weapons, like the Quad 50 Caliber Machine Guns etc etc, went to Bliss for AIT.

Here are but five examples of Ground Arty for those days.

1st Battalion 14th Artillery (105mm Howitzer, Towed)

3th Battalion 16th Artillery (155mm Howitzer, Towed)

1st Battalion 27th Artillery (155mm Howitzer, Self Propelled)

4th Battalion 39th Artillery (8" Howitzer, Self Propelled)

1st Battalion 42nd Artillery (Honest John)

 

And of Air Arty.

 

1st Battalion 44th Artillery (Automatic Weapon, Self Propelled) the unit that operated those M44 Dusters.

 

2nd Battalion 44th Artillery (Pershing)

 

6th Battalion 56th Artillery (Hawk)

 

1st Battalion 65th Artillery (Nike Hercules)

During the 60s the Army's Artillery operated numerous Air Defense Battalions, but as you see, despite any local unit application of ADA on vehicle bumpers or unit stationary/paper work of some units that fired air defense weaponry, they were not called as we have seen Air Defense Artillery, the weapons were Missiles, to include Hawk, and Pershing missiles, the other type were called Automatic Weapons, to include Vulcan, Chaparral (first unit activated in May 1969, which by that time the Branch was already Split in to FA and ADA), Duster, and the old Quad .50 Caliber Machine Guns, also Searchlight units.

 

To reiterate. While the Artillery Branch was split in two in late 1968, the Artillery Battalions continued to be known under their 1957 CARS titles, it was in I think 1971 or 1972 ( not sure of the year there) that the Artillery units that operated Air Defense Weapons were finally designated Air Defense Artillery, as in the ADA, in example the unit that was a part of the 1st Cav Div when I was in it in 1980-81, the 1st Battalion 68th Air Defense Artillery,

To add one final fine point it would seem that those units under CARS, that operated Air Defense Artillery weapons tended, but not always, to be ones associated with the old Coast Artillery/ Anti Aircraft Artillery, here after 1957 they just were no longer officially called by those old titles.


Edited by patches, 23 January 2018 - 06:49 PM.


#30 atb

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 03:30 AM

The "Pershing" was a field artillery rocket, not an air defense weapon.

#31 patches

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 08:25 AM

The "Pershing" was a field artillery rocket, not an air defense weapon.

Yes, correct, a ballistic one, replaced the Redstone.



#32 patches

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 09:09 PM

Found another Artillery Guidon to illustrate the period.

 

C Battery 2nd Battalion 9th Artillery (105mm Howitzer, Towed) 25th Infantry Division, Central Highlands, December 1965. (The White coloring of the 2 there is probably glare, and that it is in fact Yellow).

 

VNJ.jpg


Edited by patches, 07 February 2018 - 09:11 PM.



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