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166th Infantry Guidon - eBay train wreck...?


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#1 nirvana

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 07:26 AM

I've been watching this auction spiral into madness over the past few days:

https://rover.ebay.c...tm/142658110860

The item is being sold as an original WW1 era flag, from a museum collection, that was used by a somewhat notable combat unit.

What I'm seeing is a WW2 era guidon, from the service company of a unit that never deployed in the ETO or PTO. It was basically a training unit. The style, color and patterns assure me of the era, I've examined literally scores of these things. And it's in awful shape.

I was interested until the price got close to $100. It was over $400 last night, and now it's over 600, making it one of the most expensive guidon flags I've seen on eBay in a while.

Is anyone seeing something here that I'm not? Why would two people fight with this kind of money?

#2 tarbridge

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:12 AM

Another wasted thread without the inclusion of images...

rps20180121_110925.jpg rps20180121_110943.jpg rps20180121_111010.jpg

#3 nirvana

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:50 AM

I thought that since the auction was still active, and that the photos belong to someone else, that posting the link would be preferable. Now I know. Thank you.

#4 tarbridge

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:16 AM

I thought that since the auction was still active, and that the photos belong to someone else, that posting the link would be preferable. Now I know. Thank you.


Thank you.The auction and photos are for the public and have no liability against posting.A link without images is useless, once the link becomes invalid, any gleaned information without corresponding images...becomes wasted time/effort and no longer useful as a intellectual and educational conversation. So, we always appreciate the members efforts to include the images in threads.I apologize if my post was taken as something personal, it was not meant to be.I have posted the message to please include images incalculable times and I'm still trying to spread the message.Robert

#5 mshaw

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 10:01 AM

I agree that the auction is bonkers. It could be a couple of things. The bidders might really think it's a WW I guidon. If that's the case, someone is about to learn an expensive lesson. Also, it's an Ohio National Guard unit. My Dad was in this unit. I've picked up stuff at local auctions and paid a little more than it's worth because it was his unit. You can run into some really rabid National Guard unit collectors because of the local interest, having relatives that were in the unit, etc. These units were a very big part of a town for many decades and people can have strong connections to them and they can really have a big following between former members, family members, friends, etc. With that said, you're right. The auction is way out of whack.



#6 tdurbinmas

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:33 PM

I agree that the auction is bonkers. The only thing missing is a grandiose story about how the guidon was carried during the D-Day invasion and a few bullet holes!

Ha!



#7 MAW

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:49 PM

I agree this looks like a WWII vintage guidon....generally speaking.

When did they stop having supply companies in infantry regiments?

#8 patches

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:42 PM

I agree this looks like a WWII vintage guidon....generally speaking.

When did they stop having supply companies in infantry regiments?

This will be Service Company, I think by the end of the 40s around 1947-48,the SV Co was out,  just now a HQ company at regiment, which included more guys for service, that is for supply and support, this being the same time the Cannon and Anti Tank Companies went out, and a Tank Company and Heavy Mortar Company (4.2) was added.


Edited by patches, 21 January 2018 - 08:56 PM.


#9 MAW

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 06:34 AM

Interesting....

 

and...not to hijack the thread...but I have a similar WW2 era guidon with numbers, crossed rifles, and "MOR" ...which I assume is for a mortar platoon.  Do you happen to have any references or a date range for that designation?



#10 Mr.Jerry

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:47 AM

Currently at $685 with 20 hours. I paid less for my original 506th... 

I doubt anyone bidding has taken much stock in the description, those who collect WW1 would notice the size difference right off.

I would lean toward two people that had family in the unit, engaged in an auction peeing match. I do like the look of the used ones though. Smells like "history".



#11 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:58 AM

Interesting....

 

and...not to hijack the thread...but I have a similar WW2 era guidon with numbers, crossed rifles, and "MOR" ...which I assume is for a mortar platoon.  Do you happen to have any references or a date range for that designation?

MOR I would guess would be from the 50s.



#12 nirvana

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 10:09 AM

Currently at $685 with 20 hours. I paid less for my original 506th... 
I doubt anyone bidding has taken much stock in the description, those who collect WW1 would notice the size difference right off.
I would lean toward two people that had family in the unit, engaged in an auction peeing match. I do like the look of the used ones though. Smells like "history".

  

This seems like the most likely route, a pissing match. I paid $300 for my WW2 era Armored flag. What sort of 506th flag do you have?

MOR I would guess would be from the 50s.


I agree. This is a perfect example of the issues that "we" run into in this part of the hobby. Since there is no book, and WW2 pattern guidons were in use for decades, so much of the research process is using random data points to establish the flags era or provenance

Edited by nirvana, 22 January 2018 - 10:11 AM.


#13 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 11:27 AM

  

This seems like the most likely route, a pissing match. I paid $300 for my WW2 era Armored flag. What sort of 506th flag do you have?


I agree. This is a perfect example of the issues that "we" run into in this part of the hobby. Since there is no book, and WW2 pattern guidons were in use for decades, so much of the research process is using random data points to establish the flags era or provenance

In your travels in the guidon arena, were some of the guidons from the era when regiments had Service Companies marked SV as opposed to just an S?



#14 nirvana

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 01:51 PM

All that I've owned (4-5) just have an "S." In reviewing my records, I have to disagree with the cutoff for their usage being in the 1940s. I have an Air Defense Artillery guidon from the late late (?) 1950s marked to a service company. I'll dig it out and get some pics in the near future.

#15 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:47 PM

All that I've owned (4-5) just have an "S." In reviewing my records, I have to disagree with the cutoff for their usage being in the 1940s. I have an Air Defense Artillery guidon from the late late (?) 1950s marked to a service company. I'll dig it out and get some pics in the near future.

Most unusual, that's true late 50s, the new Artillery Branch, from 1957 to 1968 used that Crossed Cannon with Upright Missile, this would include all artillery battalions whether they manned Tube and or Ground to Ground Missiles and Ground to Air Missiles. This would be in the PENTOMIC era, I got a year book from that era, 4th Inf Div, let me dig it out and see the TOE of their Arty Battalions, they could have had a different structure then the Infantry, which were now (back then) reorganized as Battle Groups.



#16 nirvana

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:42 PM

Here is the flag. It's dated 2/4/59 on the tag. This is one of the crappy vinyl flags from the '50s, where the emblems crack and flake off with time. I've got a few made this way, and they vary in terms of condition. Some crumble, some have held up. Anyhow, service company, 1st of the 211th ADA. So at least these units had service companies until nearly 1960.

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#17 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:34 PM

MOR I would guess would be from the 50s.

In the 4th Division yearbook of 1951-52 has one Heavy Mortar Company, the 22nd Inf, who's guidon is i view, has MORT on it, so we gather it varied from unit to unit.



#18 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:46 PM

Well, Blew that one, sometimes it happens :lol:

 

So lets straighten that out. I dug out a couple of 50s 60s yearbooks, both 4th Division ones, one from 1951-1952, and 1962, and yes, Service Companies and Service Batteries are still present. We also seen that in the very early PENTOMIC period like 1957-58-59, the new Infantry Battle Groups consisted of a Headquarters, Headquarters and Service  Company, this was dropped, with now being Headquarters, Headquarters Company.

 

So if in the early PENTOMIC period Infantry Battle Groups had an Headquarters, Headquarters and Service Company, stands to reason Artillery Battalions had a Headquarters, Headquarters Battery, certainly by 1962 neither a HHS Company or a HHS Battery are present anymore in the Divisional TOE. 



#19 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:15 PM

Here is the flag. It's dated 2/4/59 on the tag. This is one of the crappy vinyl flags from the '50s, where the emblems crack and flake off with time. I've got a few made this way, and they vary in terms of condition. Some crumble, some have held up. Anyhow, service company, 1st of the 211th ADA. So at least these units had service companies until nearly 1960.

Yes indeed, see post #18 above. An early PENTOMIC issue. The 1st Battalion 211th Artillery, back then a Non Divisional Separate unit of the Massachusetts National Guard, guess under the command of Headquarters Massachusetts National Guard, was formed under CARS in 1959 May, so the date jives with this, started making these a bit before for issue to the new unit. it was assigned later to the now inactive 26th Infantry Division, I don't know sometime in the 70s or 80s.

 

Pretty sure right now, that this unit was a Howitzer Battalion, as mentioned, despite any local unit application of ADA on vehicle bumpers or unit stationary/paper work of some units that fired air defense weaponry, there was no specific or separate Air Defense Branch, in it units that did use AD weapons, and those that used tube and ground to ground missiles where all under the new Artillery Branch and had as their branch insignia this crossed cannons with missile.



#20 nirvana

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:23 PM

They were called the 211th Missile Battalion. I did a brief write up a little while back. I've got two flags from this unit. They did air defense for Nike launch sites. The medical flag is from a 1957 batch, I think.

http://www.usmilitar...vice-companies/

Edited by nirvana, 22 January 2018 - 08:29 PM.


#21 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:19 PM

They were called the 211th Missile Battalion. I did a brief write up a little while back. I've got two flags from this unit. They did air defense for Nike launch sites. The medical flag is from a 1957 batch, I think.

http://www.usmilitar...vice-companies/

Ah you're getting this unit 1/211th Artillery confused with that Pre CARS unit. the 211th Anti Aircraft Missile Battalion of the Connecticut National Guard, their Guidon's like all 50s Pre Cars FA or AAA Battalions will be Crossed Cannons with Battery letter (AAA no longer using the old Coast Artillery Branch insignia since the early 50s).

 

This one as here for this 211th as you see has a 1, post CARS for Battalion designation. This 211th Artillery was apparently a brand new parent unit under CARS, and incorporated for one, the old 212th Field Artillery Battalion Mass NG.

 

Want to be even more confused! :lol:

 

At this time in the late 50s there was another 211th, this one the 211th Field Artillery Battalion, a descendant of the Mass NG's 102nd Field Artillery Regiment, formed in February 1942 from the 1st Battalion 102nd Field Artillery Regiment, it was briefly assigned to the 26th Infantry Division, but was relived of assignment Jan 1943, and went on to serve as a separate artillery unit in the ETO.

 

After WWII the 211th FA Bn is inactivated, briefly, it's reactivated in the Mass NG during 1946, says it was part of the 26th Div again, maybe, I have one source that gives the FA Bn's for the 26th Division as the 101st, 102nd, 180th and 263rd FA Bn's. But any way, this 211th FA Bn is inactivated in 1959 because of CARS, and is consolidated into....the 102nd Artillery, a Parent unit under CARS :lol:, like why didn't they just make the unit the 211th Artillery, why create a totally new unaffiliated 211th Artillery. These are the things one has negotiate through when studying this period lots of redundancies and contradictory s... to sort through  :lol: 

 

But it's worth it



#22 patches

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:40 PM

Well, Blew that one, sometimes it happens :lol:

 

So lets straighten that out. I dug out a couple of 50s 60s yearbooks, both 4th Division ones, one from 1951-1952, and 1962, and yes, Service Companies and Service Batteries are still present. We also seen that in the very early PENTOMIC period like 1957-58-59, the new Infantry Battle Groups consisted of a Headquarters, Headquarters and Service  Company, this was dropped, with now being Headquarters, Headquarters Company.

 

So if in the early PENTOMIC period Infantry Battle Groups had an Headquarters, Headquarters and Service Company, stands to reason Artillery Battalions had a Headquarters, Headquarters Battery, certainly by 1962 neither a HHS Company or a HHS Battery are present anymore in the Divisional TOE. 

That's

 

"So if in the early PENTOMIC period Infantry Battle Groups had an Headquarters, Headquarters and Service Company, stands to reason Artillery Battalions had a Headquarters, Headquarters and Service Battery"

 

Left out the Service there.



#23 nirvana

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 07:30 AM

Sold for $861 plus shipping.  Two bidders did all the fighting, taking it up from $200 to the final sale price.  



#24 patches

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 09:18 AM

Sold for $861 plus shipping.  Two bidders did all the fighting, taking it up from $200 to the final sale price.  

Have you ever started a specific topic where you show all the guidons in your collection?



#25 nirvana

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 09:30 AM

I've not, I'm just lazy and I'm not sure that the interest is there. I post one or two here and there and let the rest hibernate.

I'm still piecing through the 211th artillery saga. It keys up a few questions in my brain. If it's true: What type of guidon would the missile battalion have been issued? When did the army begin using traditional artillery guidons again? They are using them in the present day.

This is all complicated by the fact that I have a "WW2" pattern guidon (green pole sleeve, with QMD tag) that has on it that rocket and cannon logo, placing it before the 1957 cutoff period that my one flag is marked to. It lacks the battalion marking. So where does it fit in? lol. The services pretty clearly used NOS flags from prior eras, so dating them from the tags and materials alone is useless.


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