nchistory Posted January 13, 2018 Share #1 Posted January 13, 2018 Any ideas on date?? Crisp detail, not sloppy made. This style of imitation 2 pc. Officers buckle came out in 1870s. Ive seen longitude lines in the WW1 era, yet without pre and post WW1. Is this in USMC regulations? All help greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share #2 Posted January 13, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share #3 Posted January 13, 2018 OK I'll figure this out myself... 1920's... conforms to the Commercial Navy Plate-1920's..O'Donnell Plate 1026.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warguy Posted January 14, 2018 Share #4 Posted January 14, 2018 These Marine Corps belt buckles were popular in the China Marine era of the 20's through about 1940 from what I understand. They are pretty rare. I have seen them with the droop eagle and later 1936 pattern ega. I believe they were an unofficial item not regulation for the Corps. I have a complete buckle still attached to the leather belt in my collection and one of these buckles is depicted on the cover of Moran's work on Marine Corps uniforms 1912-1940. I believe the one you depict is currently be offered on auction. I would be careful, it is hard to make out for sure but the area behind the ega in this photo appears it may be a cast piece which wouldn't be a good sign IMO. I have seen at least one of these I thought was original marked "England" on the back. Mine is unmarked. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #5 Posted January 14, 2018 Hi Kevin, thank you for your response, I would love to see your example if you don't mind sharing, as you can imagine its difficult to find an example to validate or compare it to. Not sure I understand what you note about "cast", as from the advent of 2 piece buckles on the 1850's, they were mostly cast, although I have seen a few non-USMC that were applied instead of integral. Unless you mean sand-cast, where the background would have a pebbly texture, which would indicate a cheaper style of manufacture, yet the balance of the detail on this would indicate differently. Looking at the reverse of this plate it shows wear from being used, and suggests the patina evidence of the wreath portion had been with it for decades before being lost. I guess my concerns would lie with the darkened bronzed finish, as I've only seen the navy which almost always was finished in bright. If there is a positive side, there was a early c-catch expert rifleman marksmanship badge that was found with this, which would also indicate 1920-30's. Ih you have an example, would like to see if at all possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #6 Posted January 14, 2018 I did find this on the forum, and background looks textured as well, yet bright finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #7 Posted January 14, 2018 With female wreath portion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #8 Posted January 14, 2018 Found this on forum as well on belt. It appears to be darkened bronze like mine, yet different eagle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #9 Posted January 14, 2018 I guess some refer to bronze finish as enlisted, but couldn't it have been intended for Officer field uniform? These 2 piece type buckles, sword belt plates I have always seen referenced as Officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #10 Posted January 14, 2018 Early marksmanship badge located with this ega buckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #11 Posted January 14, 2018 Another I found in "china" style.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #12 Posted January 14, 2018 If this is the Moran book you reference, don't see it on cover?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted January 14, 2018 Share #13 Posted January 14, 2018 I own one as well (might actually be the droop wing with belt depicted above). I believe these were novelty items, based on officer plates and sold as Moto pieces. The buckles are not large, the belts not wide (about an inch), and craftsmanship below what you would expect in regs. That said, they are popular with collectors and not the easiest to find...esp the female side. I believe Bobgee had to wait years to find the female half to his Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warguy Posted January 14, 2018 Share #14 Posted January 14, 2018 NC you might be right about the stippling to the background, it may be correct and that is in fact what caught my eye, and yes, it looked like a sand cast finish when I saw that. I will have to look closer at that area on mine, I think it has some age in there and difficult to see but for some reason I thought this area was smooth. Brig is absolutely correct in these being more of a novelty item and therefor probably don't conform to the higher standards of regulations. If you ended up with the one off ebay, you got a heck of a buy even if the female end is missing if it is the real deal. I will take a photo of the one in my collection, came from one of the Manifor brothers. The book you show is in fact the one I am referring to. If you have a copy, turn it over, the buckle is depicted on the back dust cover. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #15 Posted January 14, 2018 Yes Brig, the one on leather is yours. I haven't had the opportunity to measure this plate yet, but if the specs fall in line with the O'Donnell US Navy specimen @ 46 mm, then that would fall in line with the common 2 piece style buckle of the American Civil War period. Indeed, I have heard one other say novelty, yet with examples being made for the US Navy, maybe not so. They also may not be sword belt plates, yet sash buckles which were common in the 19th century to be worn with dress, not field use. I have had a difficult time finding examples, so not so widely used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #16 Posted January 14, 2018 Yes Kevin, I did get a deal on it. Would love to see your example when time permits. I don't have Moran's book, so if you could share his thoughts or his image, it might be helpful here. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warguy Posted January 14, 2018 Share #17 Posted January 14, 2018 Hey Chris, here is some shots that I hope will help. I stil cant really tell if the background behind the ega on mine is stippled, looks like it could be but the patina hides it a bit. Hope I didnt worry you too much, I dont know that these have been faked, but everything seems faked these days. Once again, that was all that caused me pause when I saw it up for sale, so in hand, if it looks sharp and not typical of sand casting, you are probably good. I recall seeing a nice one of these for sale in a Fredericksburg antique store back in about 2012 or so when I was over there for a business trip. I didnt know eneough about them or the ega's at the time so I passed and have since regretted it as I think it was a good one. Best, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warguy Posted January 14, 2018 Share #18 Posted January 14, 2018 More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warguy Posted January 14, 2018 Share #19 Posted January 14, 2018 The book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted January 14, 2018 Share #20 Posted January 14, 2018 They are undoubtedly 1930s...the droop wing, while approved in 1926, didn't see circulation until about 1930. The other pattern is an NS Meyers pattern that was a popular private purchase alternative to the unpopular issued "goonie bird" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #21 Posted January 14, 2018 Kevin, you do realize only your plate is an exact match for mine, not China Eagle or longitude lines. Its good to see yours, everybody always wants "One of a kind", but in reality you want 2, so you can validate. The belt looks like a sword belt without hangers, but the hangers could have slid over the belt and since been lost. That belt looks earlier than 1930, maybe late 19th or turn of the century??? Your EGA looks sweated on, or soldered, as well as mine does, but it is a separate piece attracted to the disk. I don't recall ever seeing a Marine wear one of these. I do wonder if these were added with a presentation sword in case, as sometimes they were included with the sword, and this might account for so few out there. Just speculation, but that generates conversation. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #22 Posted January 14, 2018 And I doubt these have been faked, as too few out there. Yet I did contact Gary Williams at Hanover, because if they had been, he would know. I'll follow up as soon as I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #23 Posted January 14, 2018 An example is this cased tiffany presentation sword with sash and belt. It would account for a non regulation private purchase buckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brig Posted January 14, 2018 Share #24 Posted January 14, 2018 These belts are too narrow to support the weight of a sword, and in my opinion would look comically small worn in uniform over the blouse when compared to issue belts I agree they have likely not been reproduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nchistory Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share #25 Posted January 14, 2018 I understand Brig, I've never actually held one (mine hasn't arrived), so I may have a different opinion once in hand. May not be a sword belt, but possibly a sash buckle only decorative. There still seems to be 2 distinct patterns, the m26(china), and the 36..... I'm not an ega guy, so I may have dates incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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