Old Marine Mameluk

[reschenk]

I believe we may have been too hasty in declaring Bowhunter's mameluke to be a non-US, non-USMC sword. To me it looks very much like a Widmann-made M1826 USMC mameluk from the 1840s. Here is his sword:

 

 

 

 

Here are some photos of known Widmann M1826 USMC mamelukes:

 

 

 

See the resemblance? If we could get a better shot of Bowman's blade, and/or details of the engraving, might be able to better tell.

[sundance]

You seem to have a point. How would that cross guard have gotten so bent if it was not done intentionally?

[BowHunter]

Here is a better picture of the grip. I will try to get some pictures of the engraving this evening.

[Mr.Jerry]

You may be right (I have been wrong before) my concern was the lack of wording engraved etched as I have seen on the early ones. The bend on the cross-guard doesn't bother me either way as I have seen many knives & swords with post-manufacture cross-guard bending. I have re-opened the original topic, and we will see what we all can learn.

[Horseclover]

Perhaps we can see some examples of the blade etchings on other first generation US Marines officer swords. Somewhere are notes of an/the original order of swords to be obtained from a British supplier/maker. IIRC, from a quartermaster's office. Of course, there must have been other private party mameluke swords owned, so it might be worth exploring any older sword as used by the US Military. In this instance quite identical to swords sold by Widmann. I will go fyrther to mention that Widmann sold entire swords imp[orted by him. Some with Widmann embellishments, others not. See the Smullen articles on US Marines swords, particularly the eaglehead pommel swords.

 

Cheers

 

GC

[reschenk]

You may be right (I have been wrong before) my concern was the lack of wording engraved etched as I have seen on the early ones. The bend on the cross-guard doesn't bother me either way as I have seen many knives & swords with post-manufacture cross-guard bending. I have re-opened the original topic, and we will see what we all can learn.

 

 

Mr. Jerry, thanks! Is it technically feasible to combine the two threads since they are both addressing the same sword/issues?

As for the etching on the blade, for post-restoration mamelukes, the Uniform Regulation of 1875 and its successors were explicit on the specific designs and wording to be placed on the blades. However, there was no such official guidance for swords produced between 1826 and 1859, and there are almost as many patterns as there are swords, ranging from no marking at all to very elaborate. Many include some variation of “U. S. Marine” and many include a fouled anchor. If BowHunter’s sword has a maker’s name like Widmann or Ames, or has some explicitly US or nautical design, it would pretty strongly indicate this is a M1826 Marine sword. I’m not sure how the cross guard got bent – I’m sure the damage is post-manufacture and was probably accidental. It is doubtful a Marine would intentionally modify his sword to a non-regulation configuration.

If this is a M1826 USMC officer’s sword, it is quite rare. Complete examples in good condition with scabbards can go for very high prices. An early example inscribed to Capt. English sold for $16,100 in 2011. DowHunter’s example with no scabbard and many serious condition issues would be worth nowhere near that much, but would still likely have some value.

[reschenk]

Perhaps we can see some examples of the blade etchings on other first generation US Marines officer swords. Somewhere are notes of an/the original order of swords to be obtained from a British supplier/maker. IIRC, from a quartermaster's office. Of course, there must have been other private party mameluke swords owned, so it might be worth exploring any older sword as used by the US Military. In this instance quite identical to swords sold by Widmann. I will go fyrther to mention that Widmann sold entire swords imp[orted by him. Some with Widmann embellishments, others not. See the Smullen articles on US Marines swords, particularly the eaglehead pommel swords.

 

Cheers

 

GC

 

The initial order was placed in 1826 by the USMC Quartermaster who ordered 26 swords from England, one for each then-serving officer. The costs were withheld from each individual officer's pay. Subsequent purchases were made privately by the individual officers. The initial order is thought to have been filled by the London cutler Prosser; the later private purchases came from a number of makers including Prosser, Ames and Widmann. It is not surprising that a lot of them seem to have come from Widmann since Widmann was the primary supplier of swords to the Corps from the 1820s to his death in 1848.

 

I believe I have shots of the etching on some of these M1826 swords, but the quality of the photos are not all that good. If people are interested, I will try to post some.

[Horseclover]

The Horse Soldier example listed is of a Horstmann. The listing assumes to be of used up Widmann blades but honestly (and I can point to proof) Widmann imported some complete swords. If we go back to the old testament and Peterson, the sword 144(? it has been several hours since I looked at the book) shows a slightly different guard with the same star fittings on an undecorated blade. Further, in introduction to the Marines swords is a preamble to the swords leading up to the 1826 regulation.

 

I can see and agree with closing threads that are obviously non US artifacts but when we are looking at early swords even loosely associated with the US, they deserve consideration as much as any British daggers (afaik). I suppose we might draw the line at Heros von Borcke's sword, as imported with him before the ACW but there were other foreign blades of that war and others that certainly pertain to US edged weapons (be they just bayonets or bowies). Sorry if I seem to be soapboxing.

 

Cheers

 

GC

[reschenk]

Here are some photos of the Horstmann example Horseclover aludes to in the above post. If you really must have a M1826 mameluke, you can buy this one for a mere $10K.

 

 

[BowHunter]

Here is some of the engraving on the left side of the blade.

[reschenk]

Hard to discern what etch design pictures from the attached photo. Couple other questions:

 

Does the fuller on your sword go from one to two fullers towards the end of the blade? Although not found on all Marine swords, it is a feature on a large majority and would be another indicator your sword is Widmann or Horstmann Marine sword.

 

 

 

 

Does the spine of your sword have vine or wave design such as seen on the below example? This is a common feature on M1826 mamelukes. The one shown below is from an Ames-made mameluke, but it is also found on Widmann examples.

 

 

 

[BowHunter]

reschenk, Yes, it goes to 2 fullers. There is a vine like design on the spine. Here it is...

[reschenk]

reschenk, Yes, it goes to 2 fullers. There is a vine like design on the spine. Here it is...

 

Based on this, I would be very surprised if your sword is not a M1826 Marine mamaluke, most probably by Widmann. These are very pricy swords, but given the condition issues with your sword and the lack of a scabbard, I have no good idea as to its value, Anyone have any ideas? What would you think about attempting to resore this sword, e.g. strightening the quillons?

[BowHunter]

 

Based on this, I would be very surprised if your sword is not a M1826 Marine mamaluke, most probably by Widmann. These are very pricy swords, but given the condition issues with your sword and the lack of a scabbard, I have no good idea as to its value, Anyone have any ideas? What would you think about attempting to resore this sword, e.g. strightening the quillons?

 

I think it would be risky to straighten the brass. But, I have very little experience with that.

 

I will probably put it up for auction pretty soon and just take my chances.

[reschenk]

 

I think it would be risky to straighten the brass. But, I have very little experience with that.

 

I will probably put it up for auction pretty soon and just take my chances.

 

If you decide to sell, let me know when/where you list it.