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USN Rating badge in the 1970s uniform experiment


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#1 MastersMate

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:19 PM

I picked up a QM 1 rating badge for the navy blue uniform. The eagle is of the pre 1985sh, mullet head beer belly pigeon design. The chevrons are the standard scarlet embroidered type.  The note worthy difference is the quartermaster 8 spoke wheel specialty mark.  It is not machine embroidered with the standard white thread, but, rather it is machine embroidered in silver thread similar to the type used on the basic $$ CPO rating badge today.

 

By the eagle it is pre 1985sh. The cloth background has the appearence of the type used in CPO uniforms, not the blue uniform.  So then, the question...

 

During the 1970 USN uniform experiment, did the rating badges used for E-4 to E-6 have silver embroidered specialty marks. Possibly to compliment the silver buttons worn on the service dress blue blouse ???

 

or

 

do I just happen to have a fluke rating badge ??



#2 topdcnut

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:58 PM

No photo ? Did you just disrespect my pre chubby crow?



#3 MastersMate

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 09:50 PM

Well, to be delicate about it, I just think the current version appears to be airing out its wing pits or waiting for the  "Old Spice" to dry.  :D

 

Hope the attachment will show enough detail.  The QMC is the current USN uniform shop issue rating badge. The eagle and specialty mark are embroidered with that silver metallic thread..  The QM1 has the pre 1985sh eagle and the specialty mark in the metallic thread.  Up to 1974, when I made QMC, the eagle and wheel were white thread. This one must be from sometime in that 10 - 13 year span before the crow changed.

 

 

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  • QM crows.jpg


#4 67Rally

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:51 PM

I've seen this on a few other crows listed on eBags...I served in the 80s and 90s and don't recall the silver distingushing mark on those pre-'roided parrot crows. I have several of my own rating from the era and none have the silver thread mark.

#5 sigsaye

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 12:41 PM

You could pick those up in shops off base. When the Navy shifted to the CPO uniforms for everyone, these were very popular. The "issue " insignia that was created for the CPO style Enlisted uniform was fully embroidered, thicknand cluncky. Most did not like them. Vanguard and one or two other commercial makers stepped in and provided a full range of really nice, well made insignia. In fact, they were so popular the Navy stopped making any at all and everything is now vanguard.

In 1984, the Navy changed to the fat parrot. The story I've heard was that the navy changed the thread used in the bullion crows to a synthetic that was cheaper. It would not work in the machines used and broke on sharp angles. So a more curved design was needed. It worked, was adopted (Officers and civilians don't wear that crap, so who cared?). It just became the standard. I have no way of verifying that story, but sounds plausible to me. I was deployed when these things first started hitting the Fleet and just thought it was some junk the boys were picking up cheap off base.

I have always wondered why the Coast Guard seems to not have had that issue and still has Eagles that look like eagles.

#6 MastersMate

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 02:11 PM

Here are two that are still available today from  The Salute Uniform Co in Va..  The CG Blue style is the same as was issued to me with my issued new uniform in 1975. The hashmarks and shield were of the same style stitching.. If you locate an official picture of MCPO-GC Patton you'll note he wore this style..  The navy blue crow is used on the dinner dress.  Actually would be ab easy change for the USN to make if they wanted to..

 

I guess the vendor for the CG figured out the threading problem.  

 

Thanx for the updated deckplate info on the QM 1 crow, appreciate it... 

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Edited by MastersMate, 04 January 2018 - 02:17 PM.


#7 67Rally

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 03:45 PM

Any guess as to being authorised to wear these lieu of the chubby parrots? Or are sailors going to get nabbed for wearing eagles on their sleeves?

#8 MastersMate

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:17 AM

An extremely well seasoned 'sea lawyer' might try to make a case for the CG version of the rating badge.   ;)

 

IF you used the illustrations used in the current USN Uniform Regs, you could argue that the samples shown in the regs more closely resemble the real eagle CG style.  But...  In picking the fly shlitz out of the pepper department, a small paragraph note sthat USN insignia is not regulation unless it meets the specs published for the insignia..

 

If you do a in depth search through the federal supply system, you'll find that a 1989 spec sheet describes and illustrates the beer belly pigeon with the mullet haircut as being regulation. 

 

What is kind of funny is that there are photos around the net showing CG crew wearing the USN style crow on their dinner dress uniforms.  The CG is not that keen on tracking the differences and history of their enlisted uniforms..



#9 MastersMate

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 09:46 AM

The 1990 USN spec. illustration for the current rating badge...

 

 

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#10 sigsaye

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 11:00 AM

Vanguard sells the CG style crows for Navy CPO uniforms. They refer to them as "Legacy". They are no just for dinner dress blues, just expensive. But I do know several Navy Chiefs who wear them on their regular dress blues.

#11 67Rally

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:28 AM

Vanguard sells the CG style crows for Navy CPO uniforms. They refer to them as "Legacy". They are no just for dinner dress blues, just expensive. But I do know several Navy Chiefs who wear them on their regular dress blues.

 

That's a great way for Vanguard to capitalize on the differentiation between the current, chubby parrot ratings and what we all like. At least CPOs have an option available.

 

Over the weekend, I received 5-600 rating badges (95% never worn and several still in original packaging - I am currently creating an inventory list) for 40-50 different ratings (perhaps more), many of which are disestablished or merged into others, that I will be listing at some point. The majority of them date between the 1950s and the late 1960s with several from WWII and slightly later. I was thinking that it would be cool (if I was still serving) to have the option to wear a more traditional ("legacy") rating badge if they were available. I wonder if petty officers could get away with it?


Edited by 67Rally, 16 January 2018 - 10:28 AM.


#12 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:47 AM

You could pick those up in shops off base. When the Navy shifted to the CPO uniforms for everyone, these were very popular. The "issue " insignia that was created for the CPO style Enlisted uniform was fully embroidered, thicknand cluncky. Most did not like them. Vanguard and one or two other commercial makers stepped in and provided a full range of really nice, well made insignia. In fact, they were so popular the Navy stopped making any at all and everything is now vanguard.

In 1984, the Navy changed to the fat parrot. The story I've heard was that the navy changed the thread used in the bullion crows to a synthetic that was cheaper. It would not work in the machines used and broke on sharp angles. So a more curved design was needed. It worked, was adopted (Officers and civilians don't wear that crap, so who cared?). It just became the standard. I have no way of verifying that story, but sounds plausible to me. I was deployed when these things first started hitting the Fleet and just thought it was some junk the boys were picking up cheap off base.

I have always wondered why the Coast Guard seems to not have had that issue and still has Eagles that look like eagles.

 

Steve calls this the Fat Parrot (true, so true) and it's also known as the Surrendering Chicken



#13 sigsaye

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:46 AM

 
That's a great way for Vanguard to capitalize on the differentiation between the current, chubby parrot ratings and what we all like. At least CPOs have an option available.
 
Over the weekend, I received 5-600 rating badges (95% never worn and several still in original packaging - I am currently creating an inventory list) for 40-50 different ratings (perhaps more), many of which are disestablished or merged into others, that I will be listing at some point. The majority of them date between the 1950s and the late 1960s with several from WWII and slightly later. I was thinking that it would be cool (if I was still serving) to have the option to wear a more traditional ("legacy") rating badge if they were available. I wonder if petty officers could get away with it?

. To be honest, with the rarity of wearing dress uniforms anymore, I doubt anyone would even notice. During my time in the Navy, I kept a wooden file card box on the Signal bridge. As guys made Rate, got another hashmark, transferred and took off UIMs, they would put them in the box for others o use. My SMC crows were "pre-change", I made SMCS in 1990. Nobody said anything. When I went to the Exchange to buy my SMCS crows, al they had were those ugly Fat Parrot style. I asked if they had any old ones in the back. She said no, everyone asked that and they were sold out long ago.

And if Vanguard is selling old style in the Exchange now (from what I understand, at twice the price of standard crows), I'd guess the Navy is ok with it.

Edited by sigsaye, 17 January 2018 - 08:47 AM.


#14 67Rally

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:39 AM

Steve,

That makes sense. What is interesting in your comment is that the Navy hardly wears dress uniforms. Quarterdeck watchstanders wear NWUs? I don't live in a Navy region and only see active duty sailors during our local "fleet week" or ceremonies at the National Cemetery (they are wearing service dress), so I have to defer to you and others who are still in and around the Navy.

I'll have to list a few ratings and see how they are received.

#15 sigsaye

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 12:02 PM

Steve,

That makes sense. What is interesting in your comment is that the Navy hardly wears dress uniforms. Quarterdeck watchstanders wear NWUs? I don't live in a Navy region and only see active duty sailors during our local "fleet week" or ceremonies at the National Cemetery (they are wearing service dress), so I have to defer to you and others who are still in and around the Navy.

I'll have to list a few ratings and see how they are received.

. QD watches may, forgot about them. Our pier sentries did, but now the NWUs. In 2 1/2 years, my son (Shore Duty), wore whites once for Boot Camp Graduation, NSU at A School and Blues twice for inspections.

#16 67Rally

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 12:45 PM

. QD watches may, forgot about them. Our pier sentries did, but now the NWUs. In 2 1/2 years, my son (Shore Duty), wore whites once for Boot Camp Graduation, NSU at A School and Blues twice for inspections.


How sad. Your son is missing out on the fun of trashing a brand new set of whites while simply walking through the ship or going on liberty. They are so easy to keep clean - especially those wonderful tropical whites.

On a serious note, it is sad that the Navy is sliding further away from tradition. I love having worn the same dress uniforms as my uncles and grandfather and keeping them together in my collection.

My son opted for the Air Force and they seemingly have surrendered all of their traditions. I was shocked to hear that they no longer issue medals (ribnons-only) as they have no occasions for wear on their dress uniforms.

#17 sigsaye

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 01:27 PM

How sad. Your son is missing out on the fun of trashing a brand new set of whites while simply walking through the ship or going on liberty. They are so easy to keep clean - especially those wonderful tropical whites.

On a serious note, it is sad that the Navy is sliding further away from tradition. I love having worn the same dress uniforms as my uncles and grandfather and keeping them together in my collection.

My son opted for the Air Force and they seemingly have surrendered all of their traditions. I was shocked to hear that they no longer issue medals (ribnons-only) as they have no occasions for wear on their dress uniforms.

. I always hated whites. I got the heavy white cotton drill VN era issued. Miserable to wear much less keep clean. I loved the jumper blues, ( especially the Undress blue jumper). I wore them every chance. When the Navy went to the suit and tie uniform. I resisted ever wearing a uniform except on duty. I was elated when the jumper uniforms came back ( sad they kept the "Sumer White" and "Winter Blue", to me they sucked. But, went back to wearing the blues as often as possible oh, and dungarees! Loved them. Never liked any of the uniforms I had after making Chief. Khakis, might as well wear whites. Speaking of whites, whoever decided Chiefs should wear those ridiculous "Chokers" should be hung. Especially with those sill collar devices! Should have at least let us have a crow and hash marks.

#18 67Rally

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 02:12 PM

Whomever came up with wearing a whit uniform to be worn aboard ship should be keel hauled. Though oour ships are much cleaner environments than they were in the days of coal, they are still filthy and hard on uniforms.

The chokers look good but I agree that the collar devices were not well thought out. Why if the blues have the ratings and hashmarks, wouldn't the whites? I think the 8-button white coats from WWII and earlier are far more classy for chiefs.

#19 sigsaye

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 03:02 PM

Whomever came up with wearing a whit uniform to be worn aboard ship should be keel hauled. Though oour ships are much cleaner environments than they were in the days of coal, they are still filthy and hard on uniforms.

The chokers look good but I agree that the collar devices were not well thought out. Why if the blues have the ratings and hashmarks, wouldn't the whites? I think the 8-button white coats from WWII and earlier are far more classy for chiefs.

. I remember when they were trying to come up with a "New" CPO uniform, most didn't want one, many thought they'd bring back the old 8 button coat. No one expected chokers

#20 67Rally

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 03:30 PM

I have my grandmother's little brother's 8-button white coat. He made CRM in '42.

#21 MastersMate

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:19 PM

Back when I made QMC, the CG was in the process of changing their uniform to what they wear today.  With the USN change, the source of supply for uniforms for the CG was going away. I opted to get the 'old' USN style blues and khaki uniforms. The CG would issue me a set of the new stuff later on..The cutter was homeported in Honolulu and the chiefs recommended getting one white 8 button coat ' just in case of a big deal change of command.  

 

You're right though, the choker is an officer uniform, chiefs should have a coat and wearing the blue rating and hashmarks..  In the Oh shinola department, a couple of years back on eBay in the costume dept was listed a "white captains coat" for a few bucks.  It was a white version of the 3 button khaki coat. I had never heard of that so I passed..  A couple of months later I ran across a 1970 article that noted the 8 button CPO white coat was being eliminated and a 3 button white version of the khaki was going to be the replacement to be available by the summer of 1971..  20/20 hindsight I should says I should have bought it. 1971 the USN abandoned those uniforms in the transition...



#22 Justin B.

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:28 PM

. To be honest, with the rarity of wearing dress uniforms anymore, I doubt anyone would even notice. During my time in the Navy, I kept a wooden file card box on the Signal bridge.

 
I gave my niece a nice old AT3 from eBay when she graduated A-school, she made 3rd class about Thanksgiving time and had it put on her blues but said she doesn't expect to wear them in the foreseeable future! She never knew there was a difference in crows/parrots and said nobody she knew did either, but now she can't forget the parrot and can't stand the look of it!
 

And if Vanguard is selling old style in the Exchange now (from what I understand, at twice the price of standard crows), I'd guess the Navy is ok with it.


You see a lot of of E9/CMC type official photos online with the "vintage" crow.



#23 67Rally

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:53 PM

AT3...I remember our air det guys complaining about deployments when they came aboard because they either misplaced their dress uniforms or left them in storage and had to buy new stuff. In other words, they never wore dress uniforms elsewhere back in the 80s and 90s.

Do they still make female specific rating badges for their jumpers?

#24 KRIS FORD

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 07:48 AM

. I always hated whites. I got the heavy white cotton drill VN era issued. Miserable to wear much less keep clean. I loved the jumper blues, ( especially the Undress blue jumper). I wore them every chance. When the Navy went to the suit and tie uniform. I resisted ever wearing a uniform except on duty. I was elated when the jumper uniforms came back ( sad they kept the "Sumer White" and "Winter Blue", to me they sucked. But, went back to wearing the blues as often as possible oh, and dungarees! Loved them. Never liked any of the uniforms I had after making Chief. Khakis, might as well wear whites. Speaking of whites, whoever decided Chiefs should wear those ridiculous "Chokers" should be hung. Especially with those sill collar devices! Should have at least let us have a crow and hash marks.

 

USN '92-'96 here..(first as AA and AN in Weps Dept, then crossrated (striker) to HT3. I was on the USS George Washington CVN-73. First squid here to call me a turd chaser gets the prize LOL. :D

I hated the summer white Ice Cream Man uniform..I also hated the Johnny Cash's too..I LOVED Dungarees, and coveralls underway! LOVED my dress blues, was just meh on the polyester whites..(legs were damn near see through!)

 

Did not know about the crow change around '85..good to know!


Edited by KRIS FORD, 21 January 2018 - 07:50 AM.


#25 67Rally

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:36 AM

The change started to roll during my career and like it was stated, happened nefariously and under the radar. Some of my uniforms have Chubby Polly and some have the real McCoy.

Yes, I didn't pay close attention to the design of the eagle, then.


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