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Early M-1910 Canteen Cover

Started by GWS , Jan 03 2018 07:42 AM

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#1 GWS

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 07:42 AM

    I originally bought this eagle-snap cover because of the 'IND' stencil on the front.It apparently was acquired,marked and used by the Indiana National Guard at some point,so for this old Hoosier collector, it not only filled the bill for an eagle-snap cover, it was also marked with my home state N.G. stencil to boot. While not the nicest looking cover I'd seen, that IND stencil made it irresistible for me. A closer examination of it makes it even more interesting than just the eagle-snaps or the stencil.  The hanger strap has the early sleeve or bushing in the strap for the hanger wire, and the hanger wire itself is steel, not brass. I'm familiar with the USMC items(canteen covers, F.A. pouches, scabbards etc.) using steel hanger wire, but not Army eagle-snap covers.  The snaps are rimless and the female part is marked Pat. Oct. 3,'05 Pat. Pending. Oddly, the same patent date info. also appears on the backside of the snaps of a USMC-Phila. Depot 1914 marked canteen cover I have, which makes me believe that the snap hardware was procured from probably the same source and similar time. The IND stenciled cover has no date that I can find, just the patent info on the snaps. Could anyone tell me about what date this cover was possibly made and hazard a guess as to who made it?(RIA or ?). Was the steel hanger wire used for all covers made around this time?  I've searched most all the posts on M-1910 canteen covers here, but possibly may have missed the one that covers the information I'm looking for. Thanks in advance for any help you might provide.

                                                           Steve

 

                                                            DSCN0730-002.JPG DSCN0734-002.JPG DSCN0733-002.JPG DSCN0735-002.JPG



#2 Keystone

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:04 AM

I have an identical (except for the IND) cover. Dated 1912.

Tim



#3 GWS

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:46 AM

I have an identical (except for the IND) cover. Dated 1912.

Tim

 

    Yes, thank you, I remember seeing your name in a couple of the posts when I was searching them earlier.  As I read in one of those earlier searched posts, there doesn't seem to be a large amount of information about some of the equipment of this period. The similarities of this cover and the 1914 USMC cover I have are striking in that if the snaps were switched between them(and the Phila.Depot marking removed) I would be hard pressed to tell them apart! Thanks again and please feel free to add photos of your cover if you like. Any ideas about where these were made?


Edited by GWS, 03 January 2018 - 10:48 AM.


#4 bheskett

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 10:59 AM

I would guess if it not marked Mills it would have been made at the Rock Island Arsenal.  Love the cover.

Bob



#5 GWS

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:15 AM

I would guess if it not marked Mills it would have been made at the Rock Island Arsenal.  Love the cover.

Bob

 

  Bob-Right now that's my guess too! I need to search the photos I took when I visited RIA museum. I wonder if RIA made an annual report of goods produced similar to those at Springfield Armory. Thanks.



#6 Keystone

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 12:06 PM

Yes, I would guess Rock Island as well. If you search Google documents they do have the Arsenal production figures for those years.

I'll see if I can get some pictures on tonight.

Tim



#7 Keystone

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 12:09 PM

Found it:

RIA production figures for 1912. It looks like they made 97,363 M1910 dismounted canteen covers. Pg. 18

Tim

https://books.google...canteen&f=false



#8 GWS

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 01:40 PM



Found it:

RIA production figures for 1912. It looks like they made 97,363 M1910 dismounted canteen covers. Pg. 18

Tim

https://books.google...canteen&f=false

 


  Wow! 41.5 cents apiece for an eagle-snap cover! Amazing! Thanks a lot for the link Tim, lots of interesting information there to peruse. Let me add a couple photos of the inner snap for both covers, the Army is marked on the outside and the USMC on the inside of the female part of each snap, the date on the USMC is Oct. 3, just hard to read but I think they are the same otherwise.

   Thanks again.

               Steve

 

DSCN0746-1.JPG USMC

 

DSCN0735-002.JPG Army



#9 jprostak

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 03:11 PM

Your canteen cover was probably made between September 1911 and September 1912.  



#10 Keystone

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:05 PM

I just checked my 1911 and 1912 covers and they are both the same as yours. They have the steel hook with the sleeve and the patent dated snaps. My 1913 dated cover has the plain hook and no patent date on the snaps.

Tim



#11 GWS

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:45 AM



I just checked my 1911 and 1912 covers and they are both the same as yours. They have the steel hook with the sleeve and the patent dated snaps. My 1913 dated cover has the plain hook and no patent date on the snaps.

Tim

 

   That narrows it down a lot.  I guess without a legible date I could safely say it was made in 1911or 1912 then. Good information. Thank you. Slightly off topic, I had a M-1912 swivel holster made at RIA that had the sleeve in the hanger. Scott Meadows excellent book "U.S. Military Holsters and Cartridge Boxes" states that on Apr.5, 1912 a change was made that dropped the use of the sleeve in the hanger. Only the first 2500 of these holsters had the sleeve, so it was easy to narrow down the date of mfg. for that holster to within about 4 months.

 Perhaps at some point, we'll know a date when the sleeve was dropped for canteen covers also.  Until then, knowing within a year or two will work. One last question for you Tim, where are your two (1911&1912) covers dated? My cover has an illegible name(s) inked under one flap and the number 33 inked under the other. No trace of a date or mfg.

 Again, thanks for all your help.

 

                                      Steve

 

DSCN0738-001.JPG

DSCN0739-001.JPG


Edited by GWS, 04 January 2018 - 08:48 AM.


#12 Pep

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 01:59 PM

Your canteen cover was probably made between September 1911 and September 1912.  

 

Correct and I would say the earlier part of that period.
 



#13 Pep

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 02:03 PM

 

   That narrows it down a lot.  I guess without a legible date I could safely say it was made in 1911or 1912 then. Good information. Thank you. Slightly off topic, I had a M-1912 swivel holster made at RIA that had the sleeve in the hanger. Scott Meadows excellent book "U.S. Military Holsters and Cartridge Boxes" states that on Apr.5, 1912 a change was made that dropped the use of the sleeve in the hanger. Only the first 2500 of these holsters had the sleeve, so it was easy to narrow down the date of mfg. for that holster to within about 4 months.

 Perhaps at some point, we'll know a date when the sleeve was dropped for canteen covers also.  Until then, knowing within a year or two will work. One last question for you Tim, where are your two (1911&1912) covers dated? My cover has an illegible name(s) inked under one flap and the number 33 inked under the other. No trace of a date or mfg.

 Again, thanks for all your help.

 

                                      Steve

 

attachicon.gifDSCN0738-001.JPG

attachicon.gifDSCN0739-001.JPG

 

All eagle snap round flap covers from Rock Island are dated under the right flap.  Left side had various inspection markings.



#14 GWS

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 02:17 PM

Your canteen cover was probably made between September 1911 and September 1912.  

 

  jprostak--I wasn't ignoring your post, got caught up taking more photos and trying to make a semi-logical response and simply forgot to acknowledge it. Thank you. Is your time of mfg.estimate from production figures at RIA or some other source?

 

 

Pep--Thanks for the location info, unfortunately there is nothing legible on my cover.


Edited by GWS, 04 January 2018 - 02:20 PM.


#15 jprostak

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 04:38 PM

The source was lots of trips the the National Archives collecting puzzle pieces.  In the records are correspondence, drawings and changes to drawings that RIA sent to the Office of Chief of Ordnance.  Sometimes copies of letters sent by  the Chief of Ordnance back to RIA.  Each one is a puzzle piece.    These are spread throughout approximately 400 boxes of correspondence.

 

There are 13 changes to the drawings for the Model of 1910 Canteen Cover, Drawing # 20-2-120, (drawing number changed to 20-17-35 in 1916) between 4-28-1911 and 10-10-1917.  These changes do not include the cover with the turn buttons which I believe was made for wide spread trial or the trial cover issued with the Tin trial canteen or the trial aluminum canteen.

 

Some changes are only wording on the drawing that clarifies manufacture.  Others are wholesale changes to the cover.

 

The same applies to the drawing for the Double Hook.  It is on Drawing # 20-2-43.  This drawing was for belt hooks ( think cartridge belt and garrison belt buckles).  The double hook with the brass tube was added to this drawing on 12-3-1910.  with Revision #4.  On 9-30-1914 the tube is removed from the drawing with Revision #6.  

 

Your cover has a rear seam which was done as early as 9-20-1911 ( Revision # 2) when the seam moved from the side of the cover. Your cover also has the lighter weight Hanger.  Revision #4, 9-5-1912, shows a change to Olive Drab Heavy Webbing 2 3/8 ounces, which it would remain until at least the end of WWI.

 

That's how I got the dates for your cover.

 

The production figures from RIA are informative to a point.  They are for the Fiscal Year which ran from July 1 to June 30 of each year.  They can give you overall production figures for an item, but not in which of the two years they were made.  

 

All of this maybe correct or I may just be putting the puzzle pieces together wrong.  



#16 GWS

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 05:32 PM

jprostak-

    "There are 13 changes to the drawings for the Model of 1910 Canteen Cover, Drawing # 20-2-120, (drawing number changed to 20-17-35 in 1916) between 4-28-1911 and 10-10-1917.  These changes do not include the cover with the turn buttons which I believe was made for wide spread trial or the trial cover issued with the Tin trial canteen or the trial aluminum canteen"

 

  

  I never realized there could be that many changes on one model of a canteen cover in a 6 year time period. Most of us think of an M-1910 canteen cover as staying basically the same for a very long period of time. Thanks for going to all that trouble to puzzle it out.

 

                                                                                          Steve



#17 Pep

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 06:11 PM

 

  jprostak--I wasn't ignoring your post, got caught up taking more photos and trying to make a semi-logical response and simply forgot to acknowledge it. Thank you. Is your time of mfg.estimate from production figures at RIA or some other source?

 

 

Pep--Thanks for the location info, unfortunately there is nothing legible on my cover.

 

That is sadly typical as that stamp was placed in an area that rubbed against the seam of the cover and was lost.
 



#18 Pep

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 06:13 PM

jprostak-

    "There are 13 changes to the drawings for the Model of 1910 Canteen Cover, Drawing # 20-2-120, (drawing number changed to 20-17-35 in 1916) between 4-28-1911 and 10-10-1917.  These changes do not include the cover with the turn buttons which I believe was made for wide spread trial or the trial cover issued with the Tin trial canteen or the trial aluminum canteen"

 

  

  I never realized there could be that many changes on one model of a canteen cover in a 6 year time period. Most of us think of an M-1910 canteen cover as staying basically the same for a very long period of time. Thanks for going to all that trouble to puzzle it out.

 

                                                                                          Steve

 

Indeed jprostak has helped me for years with his generous contributions(many Gigs of data) to my effort to piece together a semi-logical evolution of the early covers. He also seems to be able to recall this data at a moments notice.  B)
 



#19 Pep

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 06:15 PM

    I originally bought this eagle-snap cover because of the 'IND' stencil on the front.It apparently was acquired,marked and used by the Indiana National Guard at some point,so for this old Hoosier collector, it not only filled the bill for an eagle-snap cover, it was also marked with my home state N.G. stencil to boot. While not the nicest looking cover I'd seen, that IND stencil made it irresistible for me. A closer examination of it makes it even more interesting than just the eagle-snaps or the stencil.  The hanger strap has the early sleeve or bushing in the strap for the hanger wire, and the hanger wire itself is steel, not brass. I'm familiar with the USMC items(canteen covers, F.A. pouches, scabbards etc.) using steel hanger wire, but not Army eagle-snap covers.  The snaps are rimless and the female part is marked Pat. Oct. 3,'05 Pat. Pending. Oddly, the same patent date info. also appears on the backside of the snaps of a USMC-Phila. Depot 1914 marked canteen cover I have, which makes me believe that the snap hardware was procured from probably the same source and similar time. The IND stenciled cover has no date that I can find, just the patent info on the snaps. Could anyone tell me about what date this cover was possibly made and hazard a guess as to who made it?(RIA or ?). Was the steel hanger wire used for all covers made around this time?  I've searched most all the posts on M-1910 canteen covers here, but possibly may have missed the one that covers the information I'm looking for. Thanks in advance for any help you might provide.

                                                           Steve

 

                                                            attachicon.gifDSCN0730-002.JPGattachicon.gifDSCN0734-002.JPGattachicon.gifDSCN0733-002.JPGattachicon.gifDSCN0735-002.JPG

 

Love this one.  Anything on the bottom?



#20 Keystone

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:06 AM

This is the best picture I could get. The 1911 is clear but the 1912 is faint. 

Tim

 

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#21 GWS

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:15 AM



 

Love this one.  Anything on the bottom?

 


   Nothing on the bottom. The inked name or names under the left flap just aren't legible. The right flap has '33' inked on it, probably a soldiers company number or such. I wonder now if the IND Nat. Guard procured these directly from RIA or they got them from the Army at some point.  I understand the IND Guard received 150 of the old Smith&Wesson Schofield revolvers after they were discontinued by the army sometime in the 1890's. Possibly the covers were aquired during the Mexican Border Campaign or WW1. A friend of mine collects mostly Indiana items so I'll ask him about it in the near future. Thanks,

                                                                                                                                                           Steve

 

DSCN0731-002.JPG



#22 GWS

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:22 AM

This is the best picture I could get. The 1911 is clear but the 1912 is faint. 

Tim

 

 

  Thanks Tim, very nice looking covers and being able to still see the dates is icing on the cake! I really need to find a decent flat-top canteen to display my cover like yours. If I get to the SOS show this year, I'll be on the hunt!

 

                                                                                  Steve



#23 Keystone

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:55 AM

I've gotten several off of eBay. If they are listed correctly they can be expensive but if you can find one listed as a plain canteen you can get a bargain. There is one on eBay now:

 

https://www.ebay.com...j4AAOSwQcJaJuNS

 

Tim




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