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Dating Camillus Mark I USN Knives


capt14k
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I have 2 Camillus Knives that are similar but different. Hoping to try and date them but I am finding conflicting information. Hoping you guys can help.

 

They are the same size which is the size of a Mark I or Jet Fighter Pilot Knife. Both have dark what I believe is blued blades. Both marked CAMILLUS over N.Y. but the one on the left the font is larger. Both have black plastic pommel. Both have leather grips.

 

The one on the left there is a bevel at the top of the grip. It is marked U.S.N over MARK I. The pommel screw in the middle looks to be steel, but nut is brass. It doesn't sit flush my guess is it was replaced. The one on the right pommel nut and screw are brass. It is marked just U.S.N.

 

 

 

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Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

 

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IMHO, both knives fit into the category of Navy Mark1 knives. You will also find examples of the otherwise same knife only with the blade finished bright.

Among the "bright" finished knives you will find a variance. Some of the knives have no branch of service marking on them. Only the same "Camillus N.Y." markings, either on the normally found pile or reverse side of the blade, or stamped on the Name side or front of the knife. I'll leave it at this, there is some conjecture out there on what these knives might or might not be.

 

post-17422-0-51527000-1513363849_thumb.jpg

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Mikedon thanks for posting the pictures. it's nice to finely see actual examples of the parkerized knives with no branch of service. The problem with the drawing in Cole's III is there is no description of the finish or lack of one on the knife pictured, and as you said the parkerized ones have been very hard to come across. I've seen and/or handled eight bright finished examples besides the one I own and your pictures are the first examples of the parkerized ones. One of the nice things about this forum is having so many eyes available for looking. Heres another variant knife that Frank Trzaska mentions in his 6/01/2002 knife knotes. He believes these were ordered in 04/05/44.

 

post-17422-0-85895100-1513410334.jpg

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Mikedon thanks for posting the pictures. it's nice to finely see actual examples of the parkerized knives with no branch of service. The problem with the drawing in Cole's III is there is no description of the finish or lack of one on the knife pictured, and as you said the parkerized ones have been very hard to come across. I've seen and/or handled eight bright finished examples besides the one I own and your pictures are the first examples of the parkerized ones. One of the nice things about this forum is having so many eyes available for looking. Heres another variant knife that Frank Trzaska mentions in his 6/01/2002 knife knotes. He believes these were ordered in 04/05/44.

 

attachicon.gifsmall file transitional Camillus WW2 pilots knife.jpg

Very nice! I have never seen that variation. You have a very scarce Camillus MARK 1.

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The picture I posted is of a knife I had bid on in an auction, but did not win. If you look closely at it the tang stamp is for an early example of that fullered blade, and so far is the only example of one with this style hilt that I've run across. The others that I've seen have the later arched tang stamp. Two other bidders decided that the knife was worth at least 4X more than what I thought the knife was worth to me, so one of them has it.

Here are images of the two tang stamps.

 

post-17422-0-52218200-1513449848.jpgpost-17422-0-90282600-1513450284_thumb.jpg

 

These two knives are commonly identified as WW2 pilots knives. Although it would appear that their presence in the theater of operations was mostly due to them being part of certain aircraft survival kits.

 

 

 

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Here is an image of my fullered 5 inch blade next to the saber ground blade knife. From the picture you can see that the length of the hilts are different. The two sheaths while marked differently, IMHO are from the same manufacture.

 

post-17422-0-39449700-1513451416_thumb.jpg

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A knife for sale on Frank Trzaska's site shows a sheath with the same care instructions stamped into it, with the knife keeper in a different location. Wouldn't mind running across one of these to compare to my two examples.

post-17422-0-49657000-1513453036.jpg

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sactroop- Just noticed the lower Camillus above the stamped sheath has a very well defined, scooped out fuller. Can't recall seeing

a Camillus MK1 like that before. SKIP

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Skip, I'm not sure that we can or can not label either of those knives as genuine Mark 1's. I've heard arguments on both sides, but as of yet I'd be uncomfortable moving the positions beyond the level of opinion.

 

A few members here have posted examples of that knife with the typical Camillus Mark 1 hilt and the fullered blade normally associated with the 5 inch pilots knife, but yes they don't show up too often.

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Charlie Flick

Sactroop, Skip and others:

 

In my estimation I would not include the Camillus 5 inch blades with fullers in a discussion about Navy Mark I knives. I would classify them as USAAF knives. While somewhat similar the fullered blade knives are a distinct model and are most often associated with the USAAF, not the Navy.

 

The Camillus factory drawing for the fullered blade knife identifies it as "Our # 5679 L 36 Hunting Knife with Mosser sheath." Above that it simply says "Army Air Forces". It is further described as "Used in all types of emergency kits." The blade markings are not specified on the Camillus drawing.

 

Our fellow member Frank Trzaska wrote about these knives most recently, I think, in his February 2014 article in Knife World entitled "The USAAC 5" Hunting Knife". Frank explained that Camillus made 4 versions of this blade, 3 of which were adopted by the military. The blade not adopted had a flat blade with plastic Resinox pommel.

 

Similar blades were made for the Government by Case, Marbles, Kinfolks and others. The original design of this 5" blade is, I believe, a pre-war Marbles design which was known as the "Ideal", a #45. Frank reports that Marbles was supplying the Ideal to the Government as early as 1934.

 

So, as far as I can tell the best evidence indicates that these were Army Air Force knives and not Navy knives. The similarities to Mark I knives are obvious, but they were procured and manufactured under different contracts and specifications.

 

HTH.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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Charlie I happen to agree with your take here. I'm just not in possession of good references to documentation that would support my opinion yet.

 

Here are some links to other threads touching on this subject.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/295814-5-inch-hunting-and-sheath-knives/?hl=%2Bpilots+%2Bknife&do=findComment&comment=2377348

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/111421-odd-camillus-usn-mark-1/?hl=%2Bpilots+%2Bknife&do=findComment&comment=830644

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/200448-questions-on-a-bright-blade-camillus-mark-1/

 

Heres a link to Frank Trzaska's Note on the subject. Once you open the link you can either scroll about have way down and look for the title "bright blades", or put it into the find function and let the machine do the work.

http://usmilitaryknives.com/knife_knotes_7.htm

 

 

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The OP had such and an easy question, one would think. But so many times the answer can be quite complicated. There are many variables to take into consideration and a general genealogy of dating can be made with Mark 1 knives. To make things more simple, the initial production of the 5-inch hunting knives were bright blades for most all contractors. What had occurred was corrosion issues, through the second half of 1943, there was a lot of discussion from the BuOrd and contractors to remediate the issue. By the close of 1943, a satisfactory method was applied. Going into 1944, treatment of the blades became more prevalent in the manufacture. Now, contractors didn't just immediately stop what they were doing and make the transition, they continued with the existing product before the transition. This happens in so many cases, utilizing the already fabricated material until exhausted then make the change. Because of this, an exact dating system is impossible. Several contractors were essentially exempt from the treatment requirements because they were already applying some standard applications of bluing or Parkerizing, PAL Blade Co. for example.

Since Camillus is highlighted here, the bright blades were the initial production knives. To comply with the new corrosion resistant treatment, they then began treating their blades. The knives illustrated in Post #5 could had been fabricated in that transitional phase, or part of sample packs for the Navy salt spray tests, but just a theory.

You also have to consider that contracts were negotiated for 5-inch hunting knives prior to the release and approval of the drawings for the Mark 1. This initial fabrication met the basic outlined requirements what the Navy wanted, with the approval of the drawing, we then begin to see the application of the applied property marks which are simply USN on the ricasso. Bright blade (no property mark) initial production referred to as a 5-inch hunting knife, bright blade USN now referred to as the Mark 1, USN ricasso stamped with parked blade (corrosion resistant treatment compliance), late procurements with applied MARK 1 ricasso stampings. The fun thing is that you also date the scabbards.

We can go down the list for all the contractors. They is a lot more ingredients to the batch of pudding for these knives.

The topic got side tracked here a little bit with the USAAC hunting knives, those with the fuller blade.

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Dustin- Great information! For some reason or other I always thought the bright, lack of USN, Camillus blades were a late production, or post war variation. Thanks! SKIP

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Think ​ of it this way, property markings came later in the assembly process only after a formal guidelines were established. Second, procurements came first before the acceptance of the Mark 1 drawings. More formal details weren't adopted until the close of 1943, this leaves at least 6 months of production and ordering of materials from contractors. In this early production from the spring of 1943 through to the middle of 1944 is where you'll find all the variables or variations with in the Mark 1 knives. Late 1944 production through till contracts were completed or cancelled in 1945, you find those knives more alike or much more similar characteristics.

 

Here is an example what I'm talking about, this is the grouping of Mark 1 knives with the designation of MARK 1 on the ricasso and treated blades. They all now have similar appearances, a conformity if you will.

post-56-0-93616500-1513552612.jpg

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Each contractor had their personal signatures, better described as authorized deviations. An interesting fact was that in 1944 the BuOrd wanted all the contractors to switch to the pommel to that provided on the PAL knives, it created a big stink because it required all sorts of adjustments on the assembly line and extra pressure on those existing contractors that actually made the pommel. In the end, it proved to be a logistical nightmare, however, Robeson did make the switch. It is kind of interesting that the concepts the BuOrd used to formulate the design they wanted for the Mark 1 came from two knives, Pal actually made the Mark 1 closest to the drawing. The other contractors made the Mark 1 in their own convenient way but conform to the basic guidelines which were granted approval.

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