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Bullion CBI patches (World Report, Flying Nurse and Red Cross)

Started by ocsfollowme , Nov 01 2017 09:37 AM

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38 replies to this topic

#26 88thcollector

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:41 PM

you are correct on those dates, the article I read was wrong.



#27 mortaydc60

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 06:47 PM

If I could summarize and reach a conclusion from the above the result is that the original 3 CBiI patches are real.



#28 walika

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 04:36 PM

Since "World Report" was not founded until 1946 it would seem that, at best, the World Report "CBI patch" shown in the original post is post-WWII. Dave is quite right, speculation to explain the presence of "glow", whether on the front or back, seems a stretch.

 

"World Report magazine, dedicated to international news, was founded by [David] Lawrence in 1946." U. S. News website, here.

Below are a few CBI Red Cross patches from my collection. None of them glow on the front or the back.

 

 

CBI-RedCross-900.jpg

 

 

CBI-RedCross-b-900.jpg

 

 

 

Looking at the patches from the eBay sale, the OP, I don't like the "look" of the blue fabric. Maybe that is just me, or the images. Other things that bother me about these is the misshapen red cross and how all three have the same looking loose double stitched horizontal line between the blue field and stripes.

 

As to the question about why a patch might glow only the back, on a fully embroidered patch the reason is that the "backstitching" uses post-war thread (often white). The same could be the case here, i.e., post-war thread.



#29 mortaydc60

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 08:47 PM

I have to reverse my opinion after recieving information from who most would consider "THE" expert or atleast one of "THE" experts on CBI patches. His reasons are similar to Airborne-Hunter and also to poor bullion work in particular. The missing information is blacklight reaction which if positive is the kiss of death along with the other doubts. Oh is it curious that all 3 patches have the same construction for 3 very different units and with the World Report post war than in different time periods. Too many questions to answer and thus too risky to buy.



#30 KurtA

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 03:23 AM

 Just unbelieveable that the auction went so far with no one alerting to possible fake except Airborne-Hunter and yet bidding went to over $2000 on ebay and to be honest I did not think or even consider them to be fake.

 

A very high bid amount that is below reserve means absolutely nothing.  It's very common for that to occur - the seller is just having his buddies placing high bids to generate interest. They make sure to keep the bids below the reserve - they only want an actual paying bidder to hit the reserve. If one of the shills  were to bid to high and "win" the seller would have  to eat the 10% Ebay commission because the item "sold."



#31 Gunslinger

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 09:27 AM

I believe the insignia that started this thread are original period pieces, based upon several known facts.

 

1. Most of the insignia purchased in India originated from the bazaar.

 

2. C.B.I. workmanship will vary from very high to poor quality depending upon the tailor & budget of the purchaser. (there's an old saying: you get what you pay for)

 

3. Materials used in India where not treated in the same way as other countries.

 

4. These don't resemble reproductions made in Pakistan. 

 

 

To assume an insignia that has poor quality bullion workmanship doesn't necessary mean it's an reproduction. Like many insignia originating from the C.B.I. theatre, some will show virtual no wear and were brought back as keepsakes. 

 

 

CDub



#32 Bill Scott

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 12:51 PM

I think all six of those insignia are in my opinion fakes.If you take six different CBI patches and lay them side by side and if they were made on the same day and in the same lot they would look like mirrors of each other.We are really stretching the possible when the bottom half of the six in question in this post look exactly alike in almost every way and all of them are rare variations.The backs on the six in question are all very very sloppy in workmanship more so than on any CBI patches I have ever seen.When I put my first post on I said the backs glow what I should have said was everything that is white glows.Its just my opinion but I think all six were made by the same hands and I do not think it was in China Burma or India.I would not by them if they were 20.00 each unless they came with a period photo of a CBI vet holding them.Scotty



#33 mortaydc60

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 01:53 PM

 Forum members do yourself a favor and heed Scottys' advise and opinion on these patches. The workmenship on bullion patches from the CBI is almost always excellent and not poor. It does not look like Paki repro work we all agree. Bottom line again when there are so many questions you have to pass.

 

Mort



#34 Gunslinger

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 05:45 AM

 The workmenship on bullion patches from the CBI is almost always excellent and not poor.

 

Mort

 

This statement is completely untrue since not all artist in the bazaar would have been skilled craftsman. The skill level of the artist would have varied, which can be seen the quality of workmanship. This statement is about a true as all BLACK BACK insignia being English made.

 

Insignia from Far East Theatre that glows doesn't scare me, since black light & burn test have proving to be horribly unreliable and certainly doesn't Guarantee Authenticity of an item. 

 

 

CDub



#35 mortaydc60

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:50 PM

I have to take issue with the statement about insignia from the Far East that glows. You would be making a big mistake to buy a WW2 CBI patch that glows,period end of story.



#36 Gunslinger

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 06:19 AM

A black light and burn test are not conclusive to guarantee an item is original. One would be foolish to believe all item that don't glow are original, i can most certainly guarantee you will get burned at some point in time when collecting if you believe this to be true.

 

Experienced collectors look at other traits of the insignia such how the item manufactured and feels in hand. There are certain aspects of manufacture that can not be reproduced. I'm sure Bill S. knows exactly what i'm referring to with the experience and knowledge he has in cloth insignia.

 

There are many examples of fake insignia on the market that don't glow and don't melt. These are best seen in German cloth insignia, Special Forces insignia and Theatre made items. Some items i wouldn't even consider without handling the item first, because some fakes are that well done.

 

With that said, i don't expect everyone to understand what referring, however if one has handled enough cloth insignia you will develop a sense of what an item should and should not feel like. Is this technique 100% fool proof, of course not but then again what technique really is.

 

CDub



#37 phillock

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 10:54 AM

I trust the judgement of more experienced collectors , 50 plus years and who have handled thousands of legit and also faked/reproduction theatre made patches thru ought the years.

 

Bill, Mort,Dave K (tredhed2) and other knowledgeable collectors who have handled more US CBI ( Asian, Italian, German theatre made etc..) patches than most in a lifetime , can tell you stories of being duped by known individuals who's art form were  made to deceive, producing faked WWI-WWII theatre made patches from the 70's onwards. They would of been made out of original materials (with added pin holes as if they were stitched to a uniform) and thread ie rayon or silk from the 40's-50's that do not glow but will even now fool most collectors.

 

The most common sense is if it's WWII era and  glows , stay away and put that money into more known legit exotic examples , even to the point of PM Bill,Mort,Dave and others for advise.

 

Gunslinger you say it doesn't scare you-thats good.

 

May I suggest you buy the patches in question (its only a couple grand not to sure the reserve), you evaluate them , put them on your website , tell them these original WWII era patches glow and refer them to this thread.

 

Again if some one buys them off you  and you make an extra grand,good for you.

 

Friends not to distract from this thread , however referring to Gunslinger's commentds, I have this CBI patch , that doesn't glow but I am not comfortable with it and I don't know why.

 

It is smaller than normal CBI theatre made 3 inches by 2 inches.The blue cloth material looks too new, it has that cheese cloth open weave backing not to sure if they had that in Indian use and overall looks and feels good for a patch that is meant to be 75 plus years and theatre made.

 

 

Phill

 

 

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#38 walika

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 09:02 AM

Experienced collectors have responded to this post. Beyond the discussion of the patches themselves, it seems to me there is no way around the inescapable fact that World Report did not exist until May 23, 1946. (Post #28.)

 

World%20Report%201946.jpg

 

 

See Official Web Site for Source



#39 tredhed2

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 11:52 AM

I trust the judgement of more experienced collectors , 50 plus years and who have handled thousands of legit and also faked/reproduction theatre made patches thru ought the years.

 

Bill, Mort,Dave K (tredhed2) and other knowledgeable collectors who have handled more US CBI ( Asian, Italian, German theatre made etc..) patches than most in a lifetime , can tell you stories of being duped by known individuals who's art form were  made to deceive, producing faked WWI-WWII theatre made patches from the 70's onwards. They would of been made out of original materials (with added pin holes as if they were stitched to a uniform) and thread ie rayon or silk from the 40's-50's that do not glow but will even now fool most collectors.

 

The most common sense is if it's WWII era and  glows , stay away and put that money into more known legit exotic examples , even to the point of PM Bill,Mort,Dave and others for advise.

 

Gunslinger you say it doesn't scare you-thats good.

 

May I suggest you buy the patches in question (its only a couple grand not to sure the reserve), you evaluate them , put them on your website , tell them these original WWII era patches glow and refer them to this thread.

 

Again if some one buys them off you  and you make an extra grand,good for you.

 

Friends not to distract from this thread , however referring to Gunslinger's commentds, I have this CBI patch , that doesn't glow but I am not comfortable with it and I don't know why.

 

It is smaller than normal CBI theatre made 3 inches by 2 inches.The blue cloth material looks too new, it has that cheese cloth open weave backing not to sure if they had that in Indian use and overall looks and feels good for a patch that is meant to be 75 plus years and theatre made.

 

 

Phill

 

 

Nothing wrong with your patch, some CBIs are just cruder than others.




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