Large group of WWI and 1920's era USAAC pilot

[binthere]

Hello. Found this forum while googling stuff about the 278th. Trying to figure out or pin down my grandfather's history with this unit. sadly, there is some uncertainty as to what he actually did. his paperwork showed a rank of second Lt. Engr. which I took to be engineer or possibly engraver since it is said that he was involved in developing photos. however, my father (now deceased) insisted that he(our grandfather Robert B. Rowe)was a pilot.

 

Sorry to be so late replying; was otherwise occupied for several months.

 

That definitely would be Second Lieutenant of Engineers. The branch would follow the rank - that's standard, formal format. In this case, Topographical Engineers were responsible for photographic reconnaissance, at least as far as the processing of the film and subsequent photo interpretation.

 

Whether he was a pilot or not, I cannot say. The 278th was far understrentgh, and I suspect all sorts of people were pressed into other duties. Being an observation unit, it seems logical a Topographical Engineer officer would end up flying in the observation position. If you have a good photo of him in his uniform, you might be able to see what kind of wings he wore - pilot or aircrew. I believe they were different in WWI (will try to run that down). Also you might be able to see what branch insignia he wore. Perhaps not conclusive, but maybe a clue.

 

I am pulling together my grandfather's info on his time in the 278th. Unfortunately, he doesn't mention your relative by name; he seldom included names in his stories.

 

Would be interested in exchanging diaries if you are willing. Would give my eye teeth for a good quality photo of that unit insignia on canvass you mentioned. :thumbsup:

[binthere]

If you have a good photo of him in his uniform, you might be able to see what kind of wings he wore - pilot or aircrew. I believe they were different in WWI (will try to run that down).

 

Well, of course I should have realized this would have been documented already on this forum. This thread:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=26700

 

shows the differences between the pilot and observer wings clearly.

 

As an aside, according to the diary I have, as of the Armistice (11 Nov 1918), the 278th had 18 aircraft (of 24 authorized), but only 9 pilots and 5 observers assigned (of 18 authorized of each). Well, that should probably be 17 aircraft, as my grandfather was in one that crashed on 10 Nov. At any rate, it ust have been a small, close knit unit at that point. The picture at Camp Mills just before they mustered out indicates the squadron had been filled up after the war and during their occupation duty in Germany.

[binthere]

Hello. Found this forum while googling stuff about the 278th. Trying to figure out or pin down my grandfather's history with this unit. sadly, there is some uncertainty as to what he actually did. his paperwork showed a rank of second Lt. Engr. which I took to be engineer or possibly engraver since it is said that he was involved in developing photos. however, my father (now deceased) insisted that he(our grandfather Robert B. Rowe)was a pilot. My grandmother kept a scrap book which has some cool stuff in it, but nothing to indicate what he actually did in france at Toul. Interestingly, the large photo of pilots on another thread here shows a guy who looks a whole lot like photos of our grandfather. in any case, I was interested to see the owl and spyglass motif as I have in my possession a example of this on green canvas that grandfather cut from a crashed plane. I also have a altimeter, clock and entire propleller hub he shipped home. can't help but wonder if any of these came off one of the wrecks in these photos. In any case any help in finding info on this unit and especially info on individuals such as my grandfather would be appreciated.

 

Wm Rowe

 

Went back and rechecked my grandfather's diary and came up with the following entry:

 

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1918

Auto arrived this morning – brought Goodman and Deiter along. Lieutenant Roe said we were sure lucky to get out alive, because it was the worst smashed airplane he had seen for some time. They took Lieutenant Conrad back with them and told me to stay till a truck arrived to take the wreck away.

 

I have to believe that the Lieutenant Roe is actually your grandfather Lieutenant Rowe. Not uncommon to see spelling errors in a young man's diary. And given that the unit only had 9 pilots and 5 observers at that time, it's probably too much of a coincidence that there was both a Rowe and Roe in the same saquadron.

 

 

Can't find any other references to Roe/Rowe right off, but will let you know if I do.

 

Chuck

[binthere]

Sorry to be so late replying; was otherwise occupied for several months.

 

That definitely would be Second Lieutenant of Engineers. The branch would follow the rank - that's standard, formal format. In this case, Topographical Engineers were responsible for photographic reconnaissance, at least as far as the processing of the film and subsequent photo interpretation.

 

Whether he was a pilot or not, I cannot say. The 278th was far understrentgh, and I suspect all sorts of people were pressed into other duties. Being an observation unit, it seems logical a Topographical Engineer officer would end up flying in the observation position. If you have a good photo of him in his uniform, you might be able to see what kind of wings he wore - pilot or aircrew. I believe they were different in WWI (will try to run that down). Also you might be able to see what branch insignia he wore. Perhaps not conclusive, but maybe a clue.

 

I am pulling together my grandfather's info on his time in the 278th. Unfortunately, he doesn't mention your relative by name; he seldom included names in his stories.

 

Would be interested in exchanging diaries if you are willing. Would give my eye teeth for a good quality photo of that unit insignia on canvass you mentioned. :thumbsup:

 

OK, apparently I lied to you. Sorry. Let me correct the record.

 

Found a roster of the 278th Obs Sdq dated 30 November 1918. That roster lists the officers and their assigned duty positions. Rowe, Robert S., 2nd Lt., ASUSA was assigned as Engineer Officer. Further, the Squadron history mentions he was assigned as Squadron Engineer Officer as of 2 Oct 1918.

 

Now, normally when I see 'Engineer', I automatically think Corps of Engineers, or one of its sub-fields, such as Topographical Engineers. But in this case that would be wrong. Completely wrong.

 

The other non-pilot/observer positions in the Squadron were Supply Officer, Armament Officer, Radio Officer, Medical Officer, etc. So it seems clear these are deparment or section heads. But what, then would the Engineer Officer actualy be running?

 

Well, found that in a couple of sources. When my grandfather reported into the 278th, he said he reported to the 'Engineer Department', where he then was assigned as crew chied and given and aircraft. A second source included daily maintenence staus reports for airplanes in a couple different squadrons. The letterhead was Squadron Engineer Department and the signature block was the Squardon Engineer Officer. Clearly the Engineer Department was the section responsible for aircraft maintence. Knowing this, it's now obvious why Lt. Rowe drove for hours to view the place my grandfather crashed in. As head of Squadron Maintenence, he'd have to investigate, report and recommend writing off the wreck.

 

OK, so what branch was he? The unit roster discloses that. The "ASUSA" would have stood for Air Service, US Army. All of the pilots and most of the observers were ASUSA - so he could have been either. The rest of the observers were FAUSA (Field Artillery) or CACUSA (Coastal Artillery Corps).

 

Sorry for the initial misdirection, and hope this clears things up.

[binthere]

Another pilot with his plane, and a close up of the 278th insignia painted on the side of Sloan's plane. I suspect the squadron met up with their planes at Vinets (?) and then went forward. I think they were actually deployed after the armistice.

 

Dug up the 278th's Unit History - all one and a half pages of it. En route from Brest, the Squadron halted from 4-16 September 1918 at St. Maixent. There apparently was an aviation depot there, as the history notes the Squadron made a partial draw of its equimpent there. Also there was the Air Service Replacement Concentration Barracks, and the unit picked up replacements from it to fill the ranks.

 

From there the Squadron proceeded to the 1st Air Depot at Colombey Les Belles - roughly 90 km east of Vinets, arriving 19 Septermber 1918. Apparently the Squadron's troops spent the time on fatigue and guard duties. Since the 1st Air Depot had an instructional school, it might be safe to assume the pilots were being familiarized with aircraft - but that's just a guess. The Squadron then moved to the Autreville Aerodrome 8 km south of Colombey Les Belles on 1 October. It was here the History stated they drew the rest of their squadron equipment.

 

The 18 planes of the Squadron were flown into Autreville Aerodrome some time in the period 15-20 October - a guesstimate based on a couple sourses. No idea from which depot the pilots drew the planes.

 

The first wreck for the Squadron took place 23 October 1918, so we know they had their aircracft by then. Their second crash happened on 29 October. No one was killed in either accident. (Thanks to cthomas for this part.)

 

On 29 October the Squadron was assigned to the Second Army, and on 10 Novemeber most of the Squadron moved forward to Toul, where it was assigned to the Observation Group, Second Army. The war ended the next day.

 

There's a post over on the Aerodrome Forum that says the unit made a token combat mission on 5 November, but not sure of the source. The CO took one of the aircraft to the front on 29 October and didn't return until 31 October. Neither of these are mentioned in the Unit History. That's as much operational history as I can find.

 

Not much, but I hope it fills some gaps.

[cthomas]

'Bin'-

 

You've done much to share your knowledge with other aero buffs. Thank you! I know 'pfrost' appreciates it as well.

 

 

I've also noticed you're the new kid on the block. Welcome to the forum!

[pfrost]

'Bin'-

 

You've done much to share your knowledge with other aero buffs. Thank you! I know 'pfrost' appreciates it as well.

 

 

I've also noticed you're the new kid on the block. Welcome to the forum!

Hi Binthere,

 

Yes, I appreciate your contribution to this thread. I keep seeing it pop up with further discussion after so much time. Who knew that Lt Sloan and the 278th AS had such fans!

 

Thanks again

 

Patrick

[binthere]

Hi Binthere,

 

Yes, I appreciate your contribution to this thread. I keep seeing it pop up with further discussion after so much time. Who knew that Lt Sloan and the 278th AS had such fans!

 

Thanks again

 

Patrick

 

Thank you, gentlemen. I'm just getting into this, so slap me upside the head if I start ploughing ground that's been worked to death already.

 

A minor update on the 278th's travels. A couple sources mention its stay at Sinzig, Germay, but documenting that has been a problem.

 

The 4 Corps Observation Group moved to Sinzig as part of the Third Army occupation force, but Cooke, James J. (1996). The U.S. Air Service in the Great War, 1917-1919 apparently states the 4th Observation Group only took the 85th AS to Sinzig, and does not list the 278th as being in Germany at all (this taken from a footnote on another site).

 

Just managed to lacate the History of the Headquarters, Air Services, Fourth Army Corps. Its last entry states:

 

"On the 5th of May 1918 several new squadrons from Toul are moving to Sinzig and will commence operations with the 4th Corps Air Services there.” Since we know the 278th was still at Toul in April, and since we do know the 278th eventually did make it to Sinzig, then it seems probably that the Squadron was on of those deploying on or about 5 May - the 1918 obviously being an error.

 

It must have been a short stay, however. By 29 May the Squadron was back in France (Rimaucourt - 80 km SW of Toul) and the next day began travelling home (taking almost a month to work their way across France). Taking into account the time necessary to deploy to and redeploy from Sinzig and the time necessary to turn in equipment at one of the Aviation Depots, the 278th could not have been at Sinzig for more than a couple weeks.

[Johnny Signor]

Thank you for sharing the really great WW1 photos, the ones of the emblems of the 278th and the 11th Squadron were really great to see, I especially liked the flight suit/jackets shots with the 11th sqd "Jiggs" cartoon emblem ,the keystone bomber with the 11th on it's nose was also great !!!

[binthere]

This is Sloan's observer Elwood Kresge.

 

Also, some photos of Sloan, Kresge and another pair of pilot/observers. I have always felt that they are shaved due to a cootie infection!

 

I'm still slowly working on my grandfather's documents. While wading through them, I happened to notice Kresge's name on the unit manning roster (dtd 30 November 1918, the day after Alex died and the day of C. Williams' death). The unit roster lists Elwood P. Kresge as a pilot, not an observer. The man in your photos definitely is wearing Observer's wings, though, so it may not be Kresge.

 

I also have a note indicating that Kresge was killed while piloting one of the Squadron's aircraft 19 April 1919; his Observer, LT C. C. Moore was also killed.

 

Don't mean to nitpick, but thought you might like to know . . .

[278thgrandniece]

Hi All,

 

I know it has been a long time since my last posting. There is certainly a lot more information about the 278th, then when I was last here. Fascinating reading!

 

I have a new photo of Alexander that has found it's way into my possession and I thought I might share it with you. Perhaps it will answer the question whether or not the man on the far right of the photo posted by Patrick is indeed Alex. I will have to post it tomorrow afternoon, the photo is to large for the forum and my computer and photo program are giving me fits .

 

Also I now have a letter written home from Alex to one of his Aunts. I would like to share. It was sent to me by a cousin a few years back.

 

Somewhere in France .(of course he could not say where)
Oct. 30 - 1918
Dear Aunt Hattie,

I have been intending to write you for some little time but something usually come up to prevent but tonight will start anyway. We are now located at a flying field, coming here last Friday and have been busy ever since. Started flying on Sunday on small ships that stay on the ground - gaining from them dial instructions on a different type of plane, and in about half an hour was turned loose to solo. Finished my solo rides in the after noon and then waited around for a day and a half for stunts. Finished that yesterday and started cross country work getting in one trip. This morning went on a triangle cross country trip of about 150 miles and got back without any trouble in time for dinner. Had to land at two fields on the way to get some papers signed showing I had been there. After dinner went out on another trip about fifty miles each way, landing on the other end. This is some beautiful country to fly over- being covered with forests which have a distinctive shape everyone of them, and lots of towns this country being fairly well populated. I got home about four o'clock, pretty well tired out. I have now finished all the work on three fields and tomorrow morning I go to another field for some work on a smaller plane and then about a day later will begin an Liberty. I really don't see the idea of all this instruction on small pursuit ships when the ones we are going to use in action service are great big ones. Possibly they figure that if we bust any up they might just as well be litte like to have had you along today in the front seat enjoying the ride, as it was a beautiful day and no bumps and the scenery was wonderful. Every once in a while you come across a chateau with turrets and cupolas all over them, and usually with pretty grounds all around them. They are fine place for aviators to stay who have been caught out over night, as they sure treat you nice. My pal (Boothe) who went out on a crosscountry (sic) trip this am. Had not reported in yet and I presume he is spending the night in some such place.

I got letters from Esther and Cecil yesterday, the former written on Sept. 20 th and Cecil's on the 22 nd. He told me that he understood from other sources that I was engaged to Esther and that he thought I had used exceedingly good taste etc. which coming from one of his pronounced ideas on the subject of marriage is taken as praise of the highest order. Seriously I am glad that he thinks so well of the idea as I didn't know what he would think of it. Esther told me that she had read Bess' letter to you and that both she and Norman liked her real well and hoped to have her for a sister some day. It sure feels good to know that some of the rest of the family endorse at it were my judgment or good luck or whatever you want to call it.

I have met any number of fellows that I have known at some time or another during my career in the army, and It seems nice to be around with some body besides a bunch of strangers.

You sure ought to see some of the flying that goes on around here. Every body is good but some are away above the average and some of the things they pull off are sure thrilling. There is an English captain around here who is a wonder and is only about 21 yrs old. They say he leaves the grounds doing a loop and while I have never seen him do it I have seen him fly and he is sure good. Perhaps some day I may be able to do such things but I don't believe I will because there is nothing to be gained and the factor of safety is too low for comfort. Flying machines have their weak points and its bad enough sometimes in ordinary flying.

I expect to be ready for action service with in a week or so if the good weather holds on, but it begins to look from the news yesterday and today as though this little scrap was about on its last leg. You cant' tell about these stupid Huns thought, and perhaps they will keep on even if Austria does quit. I should like to make it at least one trip over the lines after coming this far but after that they can call it off as soon as they please, and the sooner the better. The army is all right for a change but as a life job is not to be desired by me, anyway. I will sure be glad when I am a civilian again and be back and move with some of the old bunch at a little gathering. However, if it wasn't for the war perhaps I would not have had the some opportunity to know a certain young lady, and if I derive no other benefit, that alone will be ample.

Well, its is time for taps so must close. Write when you have some time to spare and I will keep you informed as to my activities.

Love to all
Kaye
Lt. Alexander K. Ogilvie.
U.S. Air Service
American E. F.
France

Transcribed by Julia Hogston / 278thgrandniece

 

Julie

 

[278thgrandniece]

Here is the photo of Alexander Ogilvie of the 278th, he is sitting on a park bench. It could have been taken most anywhere, that the Squadron was.

 

Enjoy

 

 

Julie

[278thgrandniece]

Dug up the 278th's Unit History - all one and a half pages of it. En route from Brest, the Squadron halted from 4-16 September 1918 at St. Maixent. There apparently was an aviation depot there, as the history notes the Squadron made a partial draw of its equimpent there. Also there was the Air Service Replacement Concentration Barracks, and the unit picked up replacements from it to fill the ranks.

 

From there the Squadron proceeded to the 1st Air Depot at Colombey Les Belles - roughly 90 km east of Vinets, arriving 19 Septermber 1918. Apparently the Squadron's troops spent the time on fatigue and guard duties. Since the 1st Air Depot had an instructional school, it might be safe to assume the pilots were being familiarized with aircraft - but that's just a guess. The Squadron then moved to the Autreville Aerodrome 8 km south of Colombey Les Belles on 1 October. It was here the History stated they drew the rest of their squadron equipment.

 

The 18 planes of the Squadron were flown into Autreville Aerodrome some time in the period 15-20 October - a guesstimate based on a couple sourses. No idea from which depot the pilots drew the planes.

 

The first wreck for the Squadron took place 23 October 1918, so we know they had their aircracft by then. Their second crash happened on 29 October. No one was killed in either accident. (Thanks to cthomas for this part.)

 

On 29 October the Squadron was assigned to the Second Army, and on 10 Novemeber most of the Squadron moved forward to Toul, where it was assigned to the Observation Group, Second Army. The war ended the next day.

 

There's a post over on the Aerodrome Forum that says the unit made a token combat mission on 5 November, but not sure of the source. The CO took one of the aircraft to the front on 29 October and didn't return until 31 October. Neither of these are mentioned in the Unit History. That's as much operational history as I can find.

 

Not much, but I hope it fills some gaps.

 

[278thgrandniece]

Hi Bin

 

I am not sure if you've seen the letter that I posted that Alexander K. Ogilvie wrote.The letter was dated October 30, 1918, somewhere in France (I am sure that is because he couldn't say where in France he truly was). He states in the letter "We are now located at a flying field, coming here last Friday" looking at a calendar for Oct 1918 that would have put them at Autreville Aerodrome on the 25th of October. So that at least pin points part of the Squadron arriving on the 25th of October.

 

 

Julie

[binthere]

Hi Bin

 

I am not sure if you've seen the letter that I posted that Alexander K. Ogilvie wrote.The letter was dated October 30, 1918, somewhere in France (I am sure that is because he couldn't say where in France he truly was). He states in the letter "We are now located at a flying field, coming here last Friday" looking at a calendar for Oct 1918 that would have put them at Autreville Aerodrome on the 25th of October. So that at least pin points part of the Squadron arriving on the 25th of October.

 

 

Julie

 

Julie,

 

Yes, that pins it down nicely. Thanks much. It's always amazing how much information comes along in dribs and drabs!

 

Sorry I missed your earlier posts and am slow in responding to this one. Many excuses; not many are valid. Hope all is well with you and yours.

 

Bin

[278thgrandniece]

 

Julie,

 

Yes, that pins it down nicely. Thanks much. It's always amazing how much information comes along in dribs and drabs!

 

Sorry I missed your earlier posts and am slow in responding to this one. Many excuses; not many are valid. Hope all is well with you and yours.

 

Bin

Good Evening and a few months later!

 

Don't apologize, I don't get back here often either. Life happens. We are doing well, other then being in the middle of the deep freeze here in the upper mid west!

 

Hope you and yours are well too!

 

Julie

[cthomas]

Julie -

I do appreciate you taking the time to post the transcribed letter & portrait of Lt. Ogilvie. By all means, please keep the information flowing!

I have a tentative connection to the 278th's history because of the Owen G. Williams collection. Williams was assigned to the 3rd Photo Section, which was attached to the 85th, 258th & 278th squadrons. The folder I have on the 278th is very sparse, so I've been keen on any information you share about your relative.

-Chuck

[cthomas]

Patrick -

Getting back to your original thread...

 

I know all about the accident pictured in a few of your scans & have done some extensive research on it. This is one of many I've been able to document over the years. I have taken the liberty to crop & attach them to my reply for ease of reference:

 

"The wreck of 85th Aero Squadron pilot Lt. Arthur Mitchell, and the student observer Capt. Burgess, in DH.4 #17 (serial # 22905). According to the accident report, the motor cut out on take-off and crashed at end of field (report lists the field as Congoult Aerodrome) due to red gas and water in gas. It was suggested the remedy to prevent future incidents was change from red fighting gas to white gas & filter it thru a chamois.

Both occupants were able to walk away…"

The wreck is featured on my blogspot:

https://througheagleseyes.wordpress.com/

-Chuck

 

 

[278thgrandniece]

Julie -

I do appreciate you taking the time to post the transcribed letter & portrait of Lt. Ogilvie. By all means, please keep the information flowing!

I have a tentative connection to the 278th's history because of the Owen G. Williams collection. Williams was assigned to the 3rd Photo Section, which was attached to the 85th, 258th & 278th squadrons. The folder I have on the 278th is very sparse, so I've been keen on any information you share about your relative.

-Chuck

Hi Chuck,

 

You are most welcome. I do understand how sparse the info is. My profile photo is another that I came across in some more family photos that came my way. I am guessing this one was taken in Chicago, where he was living at the time that he took his commission. I see no wings or pins on the uniform.

 

I came across this information in a search today,

War Expenditures: v. 1 Testimony and exhibits of the War Department. v. 2 ...

It has testimony by Capt Heisen. I found it to be interesting reading.

 

Julie

[278thgrandniece]

Good Evening and a few more years down the pike!

 

I found a history of the Second Army at Archive.org.

 

It mentions each group and it's history. I have downloaded it in pdf format to my computer.

I will share the link instead of trying to upload such a file.

 

Enjoy

https://archive.org/details/secondarmyairser00unit

 

Julie

[cthomas]

Julie -

Thanks for posting this link.

I have an annotated copy done by a guy who served in the 3rd Photo Section (also part of the 2nd Army Air Service). I need to browse through it again since he probably made some notes on the 278th AS, one of the squadrons he served with in the AEF.

- Chuck

[willycrash]

Hello. yet another few years later I see that I missed a bunch of activity here. just thought I'd post a photo of the piece of aircraft canvas my grandfather Lt. Robert Rowe brought back from France with the unit insignia-apparently cut from a crashed plane. I'm in the process of having it appraised and perhaps, restored. My sister has all my grandfather's letters he sent my grandma while he was training with the 278th through to his return from France and she apparently organized them chronologically so I can now look for his letters from specific dates in order,perhaps to find his take on events and the two crashes.

 

file:///Users/williamrowe/Downloads/Willie's%20Airplane%20Pic.webarchive

[awm]

The piece of fabric looks awesome just as it is. I would not recommend any restoration to the paint.

[Bluehawk]

The piece of fabric looks awesome just as it is. I would not recommend any restoration to the paint.

I would tend to agree, in this instance.

 

It is certainly possible to make the entire piece "look like new" through cleaning, in-painting, and support (canvas?) repair... but because it is a military artifact, to take away anything would be to remove its history.

 

I could readily see it being somehow carefully and creatively mounted and framed, as is.

[willycrash]

My sister has a friend who works at a university that has a well known restoration and valuation dept that she was in contact with. They had some great info on increasing the value of items through documenting an item's history (provenance-some of which could come from this thread), but I'm smart enough to know that restoration can actually remove value from many things (old cars and military weapons being high on the list). Cleaning it and stabilizing the paint so it doesn't begin to chip any worse than it has would be nice, but to do that correctly is beyond my ability (although I'm told one can do a fairly good cleaning job to a painting by can simply rubbing it with that marshmallow-y Wonder Bread type white bread). Sounds like they don't offer "partial restorations" like cleaning and stabilization which is what I'd actually want, and they would likely want $2000-$3000 to fix it up like they would with a valuable painting. On the bright side, it looks pretty good for having been stored in a series of attics for the last 100 years. In any case, my sister's art friend seems to think it's very valuable and should be insured, but of course it's value would have to be established by professionals for a fee...

 

I'm torn on valuation too because I don't particularly want to sell it, but apparently, this sort of item is pretty rare. Also, my mother thinks that she remembers that the person who painted the owl and spyglass on the aircraft of the 278th was a fairly well known artist or cartoonist of the time-I'm pretty sure that'd be really hard information to pin down but would be pretty cool if true (and we could figure out who he was).