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1915/16 display suggestions..............

Started by Retired Army Noncom , Sep 11 2017 09:29 AM

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#1 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:29 AM

I'm putting together a pre-war torso display of a 5th cav trooper, the coat is cotton, stand collar with sewn grommets, double stitched on the sleeves.

 

Can't decide where to go from there, garrison duty, Border duty, basic equipment issue?

 

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks



#2 kyhistorian01

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 04:03 PM

If you have the gear to do it I think Mexican Border duty would be amazing to see.



#3 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 04:37 PM

If you have the gear to do it I think Mexican Border duty would be amazing to see.

Thanks for that idea, which had also came into mind. The time would fit in perfect. Most all photos I've seen show no 1914-1916 tunics, only shirts but I know from experience, it gets mighty cold at night in the desert south-west. Taking that into mind, a tunic for that time period would fit in.



#4 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:12 PM

I can find any historical photos to use that includes a M-1911 enlisted tunic for the Punitive Expedition. Might have to go for garrison duty.



#5 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:17 AM

Most of the period photos I've seen of the men involved in the Punitive Expedition show them wearing flannel shirts or the flannel shirt with the 1911 Service Sweater over it.

 

In fact, I can't think of any photos (except a few of General Pershing and his staff) showing the enlisted men wearing the 1911 Cotton or Woolen Service Coats in Mexico.

 

There are plenty of images showing National Guard troops serving on the U.S side of the Mexican border wearing woolen service coats, but once again, I can't think of any that showed men wearing the cotton service coat during their service on the border.

 

I'm not saying that the woolen coats were never worn in Mexico or that the cotton coats were never worn along the border, it's just that all of the images that I recall seeing of U.S. troops in Mexico and on the border showed them wearing either the shirt and or shirt and sweater combo in Mexico and the woolen coat on the U.S. side of the border.

 

Given the number of men involved on both sides of the border (14,000 to 20,000 in Mexico and around 100,000 along the border), the cotton coat was likely worn by some of them, but based on photographic evidence it would have been the exception rather than the rule.



#6 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:40 AM

I took a look at some photos and found a few examples of the service coat being worn in Mexico and along the border ...

 

The officer (?) on the far left of this column of marching National Guardsmen looks to be wearing a cotton service coat, however, all the enlisted men are wearing flannel shirts.

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  • Cotton NG RUN00785.jpg


#7 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:43 AM

7th New York Infantry (N.G.) arriving on the border. The guardsmen with his back to the camera, just to the right of center looks to be wearing a wool service coat. All of the other men appear to be wearing flannel shirts.

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  • Woolen 7th NY  RUN00764.jpg


#8 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 09:51 AM

13th Cavalry Trooper interrogating Mexican prisoners in Mexico. The trooper at the far left is wearing a woolen service coat. The remainder of the men are wearing wool sweaters over flannel shirts.

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  • Woolen-13th Cavalry.jpg


#9 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:00 AM

General Pershing in Mexico wearing cotton service dress.

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  • General-Pershing.jpg


#10 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:06 AM

Thanks Nerd....I had hoped you'd chime in. I think I'm going to go after making a Cav BAR gunner, since looking at the TO&E for that time period, I have a 1913 RIA M1912 holster and a SA 1912 dated Bolo. I'll need to find the proper MG Cav collar disk. Not too many pre-war BAR belts are readily available though. Quite a decision........

 

Any suggestions? Comments?


Edited by Retired Army Noncom, 12 September 2017 - 10:07 AM.


#11 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:19 AM

The BAR didn't become available until WW I. In fact, it's use was held back until September of 1918, because Pershing was afraid that it would be captured, copied and then used against American Doughboys in France.

 

In 1916, the automatic rifle used by the U.S. Army was the 1909 Benet-Mercie as seen in the attached photo. There was no special cartridge belt for this weapon as the stick magazines were transported in wooden boxes. The gunner would have worn a regulation pistol belt with sidearm and a pistol magazine pouch.

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  • RUN00790.jpg

Edited by world war I nerd, 12 September 2017 - 10:21 AM.


#12 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:22 AM

Another shot of the Benet-Mercie Automatic Rifle. The boxed magazines for the gun is visible in front of the rear soldier.

 

I'm guessing that the pouch worn by the gunner is some sort of "spare parts" carrier, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

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  • RUN00793.jpg

Edited by world war I nerd, 12 September 2017 - 10:24 AM.


#13 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for setting that right..........I guess I'll stick with my original idea, 5th Cav trooper 1915/16.

 

What cartridge belt would be appropriate for a regular army trooper?



#14 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:21 PM

 

 

In 1916, the automatic rifle used by the U.S. Army was the 1909 Benet-Mercie as seen in the attached photo. There was no special cartridge belt for this weapon as the stick magazines were transported in wooden boxes. The gunner would have worn a regulation pistol belt with sidearm and a pistol magazine pouch.

Decided to go this route....thanks for the assistance.

 

"The gunner would have worn a regulation pistol belt with sidearm and a pistol magazine pouch"....and I would assume a Bolo?



#15 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:47 PM

More period photos from my collection for you to peruse.....

 

I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 Schofield Barracks, T.H.

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  • I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 001.jpg


#16 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:48 PM

I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 Schofield Barracks, T.H.

 

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  • I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 002.jpg


#17 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:49 PM

I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 Schofield Barracks, T.H.

 

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  • I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 003.jpg


#18 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:50 PM

I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 Schofield Barracks, T.H.

 

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  • I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 005.jpg


#19 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:51 PM

Studio Photo, I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 Schofield Barracks, T.H.

 

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  • I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 004.jpg


#20 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:52 PM

Studio Photo, I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 Schofield Barracks, T.H.

 

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  • I Troop 4th Cavalry 1915 006.jpg


#21 Salvage Sailor

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:55 PM

4th Cavalry on parade with sabers,  Mid Pacific Parade 1915, Honolulu, T.H.

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#22 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:19 PM

Interesting...thanks. I notice that two in the four troopers studio photo are still wearing the stand-fall collars. I thought by 1915 they would be long gone out of service for regular unit troops



#23 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:37 AM

I came across this thread where the next to the last photo posted, the last one by Charlie Flick shows the gunner wearing a cotton tunic, the assist is wearing a wool shirt for sure but the gunner's apparel looks like a cotton coat to me....anyone else feel the same or not?

 

http://www.usmilitar...?hl=bene-mercie

 

 



#24 world war I nerd

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:24 AM

The service coat worn in the above mentioned link does look like the 1911 cotton service coat.

 

As far as the basic equipment worn by an early U.S. Army automatic riflemen:

 

The gunner would likely not carry a rifle, so he would probably wear a pistol belt, pistol magazine pouch and a holstered sidearm instead with a canteen, first aid pouch and perhaps a bolo knife attached. If the automatic rifle was part of an infantry company the gunner would also be in possession of a 1910 Haversack and the equipment associated with it ... if he happened to be part of a cavalry troop, the gunner might be wear a pair of 1907 Equipment Suspenders instead of the infantrymen's haversack.

 

Assistant gunners, were likely armed with rifles. Therefore a rifle cartridge belt would be worn along with the above mentioned field gear. If not carried by the gunner, then the assistant gunner might wear a bolo knife instead.

 

Rifle cartridge, pistol belts and canteen carriers would all feature either rimmed or rimless eagle snaps and could be any of the 1903 through to 1910 patterns.

 

Holsters could be for the 1909 Colt Revolver or the early 1912  "swivel" style for the 1911 Automatic Pistol. The pistol magazine pouch would have featured either rimless or rimmed eagle snaps. 

 

First aid pouches would likely be either the 1907 or 1910 pattern.

 

Bolo knives would be either the model of 1909 or 1910.

 

Additional equipment that might be issued to an NCO in charge of the gun or the squad might include a map/dispatch case (Model of 1910) or a pair of field glasses.



#25 Retired Army Noncom

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:20 PM

The service coat worn in the above mentioned link does look like the 1911 cotton service coat.

 

As far as the basic equipment worn by an early U.S. Army automatic riflemen:

 

The gunner would likely not carry a rifle, so he would probably wear a pistol belt, pistol magazine pouch and a holstered sidearm instead with a canteen, first aid pouch and perhaps a bolo knife attached. If the automatic rifle was part of an infantry company the gunner would also be in possession of a 1910 Haversack and the equipment associated with it ... if he happened to be part of a cavalry troop, the gunner might be wear a pair of 1907 Equipment Suspenders instead of the infantrymen's haversack.

 

Assistant gunners, were likely armed with rifles. Therefore a rifle cartridge belt would be worn along with the above mentioned field gear. If not carried by the gunner, then the assistant gunner might wear a bolo knife instead.

 

Rifle cartridge, pistol belts and canteen carriers would all feature either rimmed or rimless eagle snaps and could be any of the 1903 through to 1910 patterns.

 

Holsters could be for the 1909 Colt Revolver or the early 1912  "swivel" style for the 1911 Automatic Pistol. The pistol magazine pouch would have featured either rimless or rimmed eagle snaps. 

 

First aid pouches would likely be either the 1907 or 1910 pattern.

 

Bolo knives would be either the model of 1909 or 1910.

 

Additional equipment that might be issued to an NCO in charge of the gun or the squad might include a map/dispatch case (Model of 1910) or a pair of field glasses.

Nerd, you're a world almanac when it comes to equipment...........the above info I can use but...I decided to go with regular 5th Regt trooper, H Troop, 1913. I think 1913 would fit in with the items I have with some coming into M1912 equipment era and uniform changes, some over lapping the equipment issue from the 1902-1910. Taking into the History of the 5th Cav during that time and H troop being 2nd Squadron. From the PI to Hawaii and back to Border duty prior to the Punitive Expedition and then into Mexico.

 

Received today the M1911 enlisted olive cotton service coat, complete with original M1912 rimmed buttons. I have the M1912 swivel holster dated 1912 and RIA. M1903 cartridge belt I'm waiting for. M1910 1st Aid pouch I have also and M1907 suspenders.




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