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Uncles picture What ribbons does he have


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#1 dzandkw

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:29 PM

Can any of you guys tell me what ribbons my uncle has in this picture. His 214 says china service and national defense obviously he has more than that.

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Edited by dzandkw, 30 October 2008 - 01:29 PM.


#2 Stinger Gunner USMC

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:44 PM

Can any of you guys tell me what ribbons my uncle has in this picture. His 214 says china service and national defense obviously he has more than that.

In order they are Presidential Unit Citation with star, Navy Good Conduct Medal with at least 2 stars, American Defense with star, American Campaign, Asia Pacific Campaign with 2 or 4 stars, I cant tell. Then there is the WWII victory ribbon, the ww2 occupation ribbon, and the National defense ribbon.
There is no China service on his ribbon rack, but I can tell by the photo that it is a custom made sewn ribbon rack, so with that said, he probably just didn't pay to have a whole new rack of ribbons sewn on just to add that one.

#3 ItemCo16527

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 07:56 PM

I agree with StingerGunner's assessment, but the Asiatic-Pacific Theater ribbon looks like it has one silver and three bronze battle stars on it for a total of eight campaigns. As far as the lack of the China Service ribbon, Stinger's right, he probably didn't want to pay to have a new set made up. It looks like his Good Conduct ribbon only has two stars on it, too, so it probably wasn't cost-effective for him to pay for a whole new set of ribbons in order to add one ribbon and a couple of stars to another one.

Edited by ItemCo16527, 30 October 2008 - 07:59 PM.


#4 seanmc1114

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 05:45 AM

I agree with the previous comments about the economy of paying for a whole new set of custom ribbons. However, unless he served in China between 1954 and 1957, he would have earned the China Service Medal before the National Defense Service Medal.

#5 Wailuna

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 10:06 AM

What is the correct precedence for the China Service Medal and the China Service Medal (Extended)? Do both take precedence for wear before all WWII service and campaign medals, regardless of when the actual qualifying service was performed? Or is there another precedence for these medals?

#6 ItemCo16527

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 08:55 PM

What is the correct precedence for the China Service Medal and the China Service Medal (Extended)? Do both take precedence for wear before all WWII service and campaign medals, regardless of when the actual qualifying service was performed? Or is there another precedence for these medals?

I believe the correct order of precedence is as follows:
Original period of qualification (pre-WWII): the CSM is worn before all WWII service medals.
Second period of qualification (post-WWII): the CSM is worn immediately after the Navy Occupation Medal.

If someone earned both, the medal would be worn before WWII service medals, but with a bronze star device affixed to the ribbon.

Edited by ItemCo16527, 02 November 2008 - 08:56 PM.


#7 Wailuna

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Posted 02 November 2008 - 11:33 PM

It seems that precedence of CSM/CSM(E) is an elusive target. After some digging around, I found the current (or a recent?) version of SECNAVINST 1650.1H (AUG 22 2006) which is the Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual (link here and see "Reference Items"). It places precedence of the China Service Medal between the Navy or Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal and the Navy Occupation Service Medal (see p. 1-23). However, this enumeration of precedence conveniently ignores campaign and service medals for WWII and earlier, so this question seems open to further examination. In any case, according to SECNAVINST the CSM would not be worn after the NDSM, even if it were earned between 1954 and 1957.

Edited by Wailuna, 02 November 2008 - 11:47 PM.


#8 dzandkw

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 05:35 AM

I dont know if it helps the issue of precendace but he retired in 1955 This picture was taken a few years before that. he was on the Enterprise in WWII

#9 seanmc1114

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 08:44 AM

The National Defense Service Medal was created by Executive Order 10448 on April 22, 1953 so the picture obviously could not have been taken prior to that date and who knows how long after its creation it was before the ribbon either entered the supply chain or was being made by custom ribbon manufacturers. That leaves a window of two years or less for when this picture was taken if he was discharged in 1955.

You mention that your uncle's DD-214 mentions his NDSM and China service but not his WWII awards. Is it possible he had a break in service after WWII? The DD-214 was not created until 1950. Prior to that, the Army and Navy had their own separate report of separation forms. If he was discharged at the end of WWII he would have been issued the form then in use by the Navy Department which would have included his World War II service history. If he was later recalled to active duty or reenlisted during Korea, upon his second discharge I believe he would have been issued a new DD-214 reflecting only his service, including any awards earned, during that particular enlistment.

What is the beginning date of his service listed on the DD-214?

#10 Wailuna

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 10:55 AM

...His 214 says china service and national defense obviously he has more than that....

Seeing his DD Form 214 might be helpful, if you want to post an image of it here.

There were two usable editions of DD Form 214 in 1955: edition of 1 July 1952 (usable until 1 July 1956) and edition of 1 November 1955 which replaced the 1952 edition. Both editions provided a section for decorations.

I have a DD Form 214 (1955) for a retiring USAF NCO and it lists his decorations spanning his entire career. There were a few omissions but that was sloppy clerkship, as the missing decorations are mentioned in his service record. You will probably need to obtain a copy of your uncle's service record if you want to conclusively establish when he earned a China Service Medal. As for why he is not wearing it in this picture, the "frugal" hypothesis is as good as any. Another is that the served in China, and earned the CSM, after the picture was made.

#11 dzandkw

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 05:02 PM

His 214 says he reenlisted in 1950 i have all his other paper work including older discharges but the block that says medals or decorations is blank on all of them. I have all his discharges from 1942. He first enlisted in 1938 On his 214 it only says national defense medal and china service extended. It also shows he was in AD(B school NATTC in Memphis Tennessee from 11-23-53 to 6-4-54 he retired in 15 jun 1955also had 2 year 8 months in that time foreign or sea service on the enterprise.

Edited by dzandkw, 03 November 2008 - 05:02 PM.


#12 Wailuna

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 04:41 PM

As you have all your uncle's discharge forms, and only two medals are mentioned (NDSM and CSM), you need to see his service records if you want to conclusively document his awards and decorations. At the time your uncle served, the Navy kept a service record book on every sailor that documented each significant event of his service (a sample page is shown below). You can order a copy of uncle's service record book from the St. Louis records center (link here).

Service_Record_Book_sample_page_9a.jpg



#13 Mark M

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:04 PM

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