A ruptured duck question..

[R Michael]

I have had a question in my mind for a while now and I did a search but did not see a thread that answered my question. Mods if this turns out to be a duplicate post feel free to delete.

Anyway I have been looking at the Ikes and 4 pockets displayed here by the fellow collecters and some do not have the ruptured duck. I have always thought that anyone who was discharged from service after WWII below a LT. had to have the duck on the uniform.

So given this I have never bought a WWII uniform, especially an Ike, that did not have a duck machine sewn.

After seeing a few WWII period Ikes on the forum w/out the duck I am curuios and concerned that I may be a bit to discriminatory when it comes to duckless Ikes.

 

thanks all!

 

Mike

[JBFloyd]

Discharged vets were authorized to wear their uniforms for a short period after discharge to allow them to travel home and get situated with new clothes, etc. The ruptured duck patch was to show they were in that status, so the "patched" uniform would generally be the last one they wore.

[Bugme]

Since it was issued to service personnel who were about to leave the military with an Honorable Discharge, it also allowed them to continue to wear their uniform for up to thirty days after they were discharged since there was a clothing shortage at that time. This showed the MP's that they were in transit and not AWOL. soldiers were not required to wear this but, would have to then be prepared to answer questions posed to them by MP's. Also, I haven't seen too many officers uniforms with the "duck". I'm assuming that this was because the MP's probably didn't bother officers as much as the enlisted men.

[Teamski]

I always felt that if the uniform was missing the ruptured duck, the individual stayed in after hostilities and might of been demobbed later in 1946 or 1947 or actually stayed in the service after that.

 

-Ski

[FightenIrish35]

Thats what I thought as well

[jgawne]

Officers generally got out under a deal where they stayed on a reserve list for some years afterwards. My dad was discharged in 1945 for wounds which prohibited him from running 100yards. He did not want ot have anything kmore to do with the army, but was still on the reserve lists when Korea rolled around.

 

YMMV

[Teamski]

Officers generally got out under a deal where they stayed on a reserve list for some years afterwards. My dad was discharged in 1945 for wounds which prohibited him from running 100yards. He did not want ot have anything kmore to do with the army, but was still on the reserve lists when Korea rolled around.

 

YMMV

 

I don't know about back then, but I know that all service members have an 8 year inactive reserve commitment after they get out. This is part of the reason why Stop Loss was able to grab folks out of the military and pulled them back in during the Gulf and Iraq wars. I know when I retire, i also have this commitment.

 

-Ski

[R Michael]

Great points all! thanks for the responses as they are very informative.

My understanding is Officers were considered Gentlemen and therefore did not need to have the visible discharge insignia.

 

As for staying in the service till after 46-47 a good point but I would think a more likely scenerio would be soldiers entering service after the war to fill out the vacancies left by rotating home soldiers.

 

Mike

[Wailuna]

This topic did get a thorough going over in another thread just a couple of weeks ago (link here) but it's a good question and the material is worth repeating.

 

Here's what the directive had to say about the Ruptured Duck:

 

"4 - How and when worn.--At the time of honorable discharge or separation from the service this emblem will be permanently affixed (preferably sewed) on the right breast of all the outer clothing...Commanders designated in paragraph 5b will insure that the honorable discharge emblem is affixed to the uniform of all qualified personnel during processing and prior to actual discharge or release from the service."

 

Source: W.D. Circular No. 454 was dated 29 November 1944 and was effective until 29 May 1946. Source: Dr. Howard Lanham's American Military Patches, Other Insignia and Decorations of World War Two (link here).

[Ricardo]

Hi,

 

IMOH= Some uniforms are seen in our collections without the Ruptured Duck because they can be of KIA or MIA or WIA soldiers and had been kept by the familiar ones.

 

Best regards,

 

Ricardo.

[GIl Sanow]

I believe GI's were usually issued complete uniforms to come home in -- those would have had the ruptured ducks. If they had another, say already shipped home or in a dufflebag, that one would probably not have it.

 

G

[topdcnut]

This is not an area I am big into and a lot of the conversation centers around WW2 but my father joined the airborne to fight in Korea which ended while he was in training. His uniform has a G.C. a Nat Def and a Ruptured Duck am I mistaken or were the ruptured ducks issued continously through the 50's?

 

John

[Wailuna]

...am I mistaken or were the ruptured ducks issued continously through the 50's?

Link here to read TIOH history on the Honorable Service Lapel Button and Honorable Discharge Emblem (aka "Ruptured Duck").

 

It appears that the final eligibility date for these awards was December 31, 1946. Millions of these lapel buttons (for wear on civilian clothing) and cloth emblems (for wear on the uniform after discharge) were produced and proudly worn by discharged WWII veterans. Surplus Ruptured Duck patches undoubtedly were plentiful in the 1950s (and beyond) and seeing one on a newly discharged solider even 10 years after WWII probably would not cause much of a stir in the old hometown.

[R Michael]

guys thanks for the informative answers and opinions! Lost track of this thread for a few days and just got back to it..

 

 

Mike

[airborne1968]

Hi,

 

IMOH= Some uniforms are seen in our collections without the Ruptured Duck because they can be of KIA or MIA or WIA soldiers and had been kept by the familiar ones.

 

Best regards,

 

Ricardo.

Addding some info on the ruptured duck. My Grandfather entered service in 1939 and was discharged in Oct 1941. After the attack on Pearl Harbor he returned to active duty in Dec 1941 and remained with the 6th ID til Dec 1944. He continued to wear his original 4 pocket blouse thru his dischage and to return home in. He did not attach a ruptured duck to that uniform. I pulled it from his closet in the late 1970s and have it still (with no ruptured duck).

 

Here is an excerpt from Army regulation 600-8-22 cancerning lapel buttons:

 

6–16. Lapel buttons for service

 

a. World War I Victory Button. A five-pointed star 5/8-inch in diameter on a wreath with the letters "U.S." in the

center. For persons wounded in action, the lapel button is silver; for all others, the lapel button is bronze. Eligibility

requirements are the same for the World War I Victory Medal.

 

b. Honorable Service Lapel Button (World War II Victory Medal). A button of gold-color metal consists of an eagle

perched within a ring composed of a chief and 13 vertical stripes. The button is 7/16-inch high and 5/8-inch wide.

Eligibility requirements are honorable Federal military service between 8 September 1939 and 31 December 1946.

 

c. Lapel button for service prior to 8 September 1939. (Not issued or sold by the Department of the Army.) A

button 7/16-inch high and 5/8-inch wide, of gold-color metal consists of an eagle perched within a ring which displays seven white and six red vertical stripes and a blue chief bearing the words "National Defense." It may be worn only by a person who served honorably before 8 September 1939 as an enlisted man, warrant officer, nurse, contract surgeon, veterinarian, or commissioned officer, in the Regular Army or a Citizen’s Military Training Camp for 2 months, or in the National Guard, Enlisted Reserve Corps, or Senior ROTC for 1 year, or in junior ROTC for 2 years.

 

d. Army Lapel Button. The Army Lapel Button is a gratuitous issue item made up of a minute man in gold color on

a red enamel disk surrounded by 16-pointed gold rays with an outside diameter of 9/16-inch.

 

e. U.S. Army Retired Lapel Button. Retired Army personnel who are in possession of DD Form 2 (U.S. Uniformed

Services Identification Card) (Retired)) are eligible to wear the Army Retired Lapel Button. Commanders will present the U.S. Army Retired Lapel Button to Army personnel at an appropriate ceremony before they retire.

 

f. Active Reserve Lapel Button. The Active Reserve Lapel Button is authorized for active membership in the Ready

Reserve of the Army. It is made up of a minute man in gold color on a bronze color base and is 11/16-inch in length. The button is an optional purchase item, not issued or sold by the Department of the Army. It is not worn on the uniform.

[atb]

I don't know about back then, but I know that all service members have an 8 year inactive reserve commitment after they get out. This is part of the reason why Stop Loss was able to grab folks out of the military and pulled them back in during the Gulf and Iraq wars. I know when I retire, i also have this commitment.

 

-Ski

It is eight years total (for the Army and I assume for all the services). For example. if you serve four years active, you have a four year commitment left in the inactive reserves after ETS. It was six years total when I entered the Army in 1970. I don't know when the number of years was increased. Again, at least for the Army, when you retire you will be liable to recall up to an age I cannot recall (62?), at the pleasure of the Secretary of the Army. That is what my retirement papers said.

[yardbird]

In my case I had 23 days leave left when going home..so I was in the sevice at home..by the time those days were up I had obtained civies..we were issued 2 patches and the pin. one patch was OD the other was for our suntans..

[Allan H.]

I have talked with numerous WWII veterans over the years and have consistantly gotten the same answers from those who could really remember the circumstances regarding the ruptured ducks being senw to their uniforms. The conclusion is this- Ruptured ducks were sewn to clothing at the separation centers as the GI's were leaving service. As the soldiers were leaving, they were instructed to remove their blouses and a person sitting behind a sewing machine would proceed to sewn the ruptured ducks to the jackets. Once they were finished, they handed the jacket back to the owner who put the jacket on and moved on to the final station- which was receiving their final pay.

 

During winter time, ruptured ducks were sewn to overcoats as well as Ike jackets or four pocket blouses. One of the vets that I knew wore khakis when he was separated in August 1945. He had a ruptured duck sewn to his tan cotton shirt. His Ike and overcoat, which are still fixtures in my collection have never had a duck sewn to them.

 

While discussing these patches and the circumstances surrounding the patches being sewn to them, I have concluded the following- the more soldiers in line, the worse the sewing got. I have encountered ducks sewn on upside-down and reversed with the back side facing out. I have seen patches sewn perfectly on all four sides, sewn shoddily on three sides and even once encountered a rutured duck sewn to a jacket with a single line of stitching from the left corner to the right- directly through the eagle.

 

Hope this helps.

Allan

[yardbird]

Well not in my case..I was discharged at Flort Knox...no sewing that I did see..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have talked with numerous WWII veterans over the years and have consistantly gotten the same answers from those who could really remember the circumstances regarding the ruptured ducks being senw to their uniforms. The conclusion is this- Ruptured ducks were sewn to clothing at the separation centers as the GI's were leaving service. As the soldiers were leaving, they were instructed to remove their blouses and a person sitting behind a sewing machine would proceed to sewn the ruptured ducks to the jackets. Once they were finished, they handed the jacket back to the owner who put the jacket on and moved on to the final station- which was receiving their final pay.

 

During winter time, ruptured ducks were sewn to overcoats as well as Ike jackets or four pocket blouses. One of the vets that I knew wore khakis when he was separated in August 1945. He had a ruptured duck sewn to his tan cotton shirt. His Ike and overcoat, which are still fixtures in my collection have never had a duck sewn to them.

 

While discussing these patches and the circumstances surrounding the patches being sewn to them, I have concluded the following- the more soldiers in line, the worse the sewing got. I have encountered ducks sewn on upside-down and reversed with the back side facing out. I have seen patches sewn perfectly on all four sides, sewn shoddily on three sides and even once encountered a rutured duck sewn to a jacket with a single line of stitching from the left corner to the right- directly through the eagle.

 

Hope this helps.

Allan

[patches]

I have had a question in my mind for a while now and I did a search but did not see a thread that answered my question. Mods if this turns out to be a duplicate post feel free to delete.

Anyway I have been looking at the Ikes and 4 pockets displayed here by the fellow collecters and some do not have the ruptured duck. I have always thought that anyone who was discharged from service after WWII below a LT. had to have the duck on the uniform.

So given this I have never bought a WWII uniform, especially an Ike, that did not have a duck machine sewn.

After seeing a few WWII period Ikes on the forum w/out the duck I am curuios and concerned that I may be a bit to discriminatory when it comes to duckless Ikes.

 

thanks all!

 

Mike

many GI's (concentrating on only the army as the navy and the marine corps wore them as well) deceided that they liked the army and found a home in the army and despite there experiances during the war( for instense a combat veteran such as my neighbor on my block when i was a kid and teenager. he was a combat engineer in the 8th divsion and had been wounded in normandy .returing fully recoverd in october. the following month his company was attached to the 121st infantry in the battle of huertgen forrest, origanaly a georgia national guard formation, althuogh by this time very few georgia boy's where left they being ether dead or sent home because of wounds incured in normandy and britteny, their in the huertgen wald he was critically wounded . he spent the next 5 months in the hospital and in converleasence both in england and the states after he was dememed

fit for duty he was made an drill seargant for basic trainies at the engineer replacement center at camp abbott oregon when it came time to being discharged he re-up instead and spent another9year's inthe army before he left during the korean war he wasin germany and later with the 37th divsion traning the ohio ng div a non combat formation) re enlisted, those individual's did not where the RD patch. i do not know when theRD patch stopped being a required item to sewn on uniform's at the time discharge. i say this because literally thousand's of men where still being drafted into the army as the war was ending as well as after the war had ended, those guy's where not discharged because the war had ended they still had to serve out their draft obligation . those guy's where ussually discharged in1947 into 1948 and im pretty sure the

RD had long been an obsolete item by then. so the point being that if you see and ike jackrt with out anRD patch on don;t sweat it ,and as far 4pocket tunics with out anRD patch on that;s a little different as that item was on it;s way out in the summer and fall of45 many guys at that time wore the ike jacket the prefered jacket but many also wore the 4pocket tunic for what ever reason , one of them being thats simply want they where issued when entererd the army and really did'nt concern them'selves in aquirering the ike jacket their are a few reason's but normally the 4pocket jackets with out the RD patch an item that was worn by a guy who simply kept it after he got an ike jacket . this is the same reason as the 4pockets with ribbons and other insignia sometimes do not have an RD patch on them or in the most extreme cases belonged to a soldier who was killed during the war this most was common among air corps bomber crewmen in england and in italy where that uniform was allways the uniform of day when not flying of course.i hope you enjoyed my somewhat long disertion.

[mndoss]

For what it's worth I have my Grandfather's Ike jacket from when he was in the AAF at the end of the war and he didn't have his RD sewn on. In fact it wasn't until a few years after I had it in my possession that I happened to be looking in the pockets and in one of the breast pockets I found his RD patch in there! It looked brand new and never used. I guess he just never got around to putting it on!