Jump to content


Photo

C&R License? Does anyone know about these?


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#26 BOB K. RKSS

BOB K. RKSS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 283
  • 595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut, USA

Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:58 PM

There are many advantages to having a C&R License. It enables one to BUY an Unlimited number of Firearms (as long as they are 50 years or older), and you can sell up to 6 of those guns per year; after You have owned them for at least a year. You can Buy from anywhere, & from anyone in the U.S.A. by mail order, & have shipped to Your Address. Also, You can Transport any of these C&R firearms through any City, or State, & can not be arrested under any local law; as long as You do not have any Ammo in Your vehicle.

#27 Bill in VA

Bill in VA
  • Members
    • Member ID: 302
  • 448 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:22 PM

Weel said, Mr. Hell

There are many advantages to having a C&R License. It enables one to BUY an Unlimited number of Firearms (as long as they are 50 years or older), and you can sell up to 6 of those guns per year; after You have owned them for at least a year. You can Buy from anywhere, & from anyone in the U.S.A. by mail order, & have shipped to Your Address. Also, You can Transport any of these C&R firearms through any City, or State, & can not be arrested under any local law; as long as You do not have any Ammo in Your vehicle.


A couple of points of order, Bob. First, there are plenty of firearms which are far less than 50 years old but are still considered curios or relics. (case in point, many of those American Hysterical Society commemoratives; or even better, the West Hurley M1 Thompson submachineguns (609 made between Jan. 1985 and May, 1986.)
Second, there is nothing in federal law or regulation that stipulates anything even remotely close to the "you ccan sell 6 guns a year as long as you've owned them for a year." A C&R FFL-holder can sell as many or as few as he wants, with no minimum-possession time frame involved. He can even sell at a profit. Rather, the issue at hand is whether or not a C&R FFL-holder is using his FFL as a dealer's FFL. ("Dealer" is pretty clearly defined by 18USC CH44 921(a)(11).) If the BATF thinks you're dealing and using the C&R FFL as such they can and will prosecute. The short version is that it all boils down to intent.
Finally, the statement that "[y]ou can Transport any of these C&R firearms through any City, or State, & can not be arrested under any local law; as long as You do not have any Ammo in Your vehicle (sic.)" isn't accurate either. 18USC CH44 926A provides that any non-prohibited person may transport any lawfully-possessed firearm through a prohibited area (ex., a handgun through NYC) as long as: A) possession of said firearm is lawful at both the starting point of the journey and at the final destination; B) said firearm is unloaded; and C) neither the firearm nor its ammunition is readily accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. I think what you may be confusing is this issue ("peaceable journey" part of the 1986 FOPA) with the regulations concerning C&R NFA devices and interstate transport.
Generally speaking, a person cannot transport an NFA device interstate without prior notification (i.e., approval) of the BATF. The exception is that an FFL may lawfully transport without begging permission, and thus under that rubric a C&R FFL-holder may lawfully transport a C&R NFA device interstate without begging permission. The catch to this of course is that FFL or not, one cannot lawfully possess a prohibited firearm (NFA or otherwise) where possession is prohibted (except to transit through said prohibited area.) In other words, I cannot take my Thompson submachinegun with me when I go vist Aunt Sally in NYC even though I have an FFL and the TSMG is a C&R firearm.

#28 BOB K. RKSS

BOB K. RKSS
  • Members
    • Member ID: 283
  • 595 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Connecticut, USA

Posted 30 October 2008 - 02:44 AM

"Picking at straws", or "clouding the issue"? I know there are other firearms (made after 1958); thet are covered by C&R, & are listed in BATF booklet. I'm talking generally about NORMAL C&R firearms (pistols, rifles, shotguns), & not "Devices", or automatic weapons. Regular rifles, pistols, revolvers, & shotguns: can be transported by C&R holder, anywhere, & they don't have to be Moving their Household from one location to another. With a C&R: One can Not be engaged in the Regular SELLING of those firearms. Best advice > get a C&R Lincense NOW > in case there are any changes in the Laws; by the "Pink-o" "Deamon-crats"!

#29 Bill in VA

Bill in VA
  • Members
    • Member ID: 302
  • 448 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 30 October 2008 - 03:59 AM

"Picking at straws", or "clouding the issue"? I know there are other firearms (made after 1958); thet are covered by C&R, & are listed in BATF booklet. I'm talking generally about NORMAL C&R firearms (pistols, rifles, shotguns), & not "Devices", or automatic weapons. Regular rifles, pistols, revolvers, & shotguns: can be transported by C&R holder, anywhere, & they don't have to be Moving their Household from one location to another. With a C&R: One can Not be engaged in the Regular SELLING of those firearms. Best advice > get a C&R Lincense NOW > in case there are any changes in the Laws; by the "Pink-o" "Deamon-crats"!


Lighten up, Bob. I never accused you of "clouding the issue" or of "picking at straws" nor am I trying to do so. You made some incorrect statements and I corrected them. And again in this post (above) you're interjecting things in it that aren't there; in effect, clouding the issue and are a bit incorrect as well.
First: "NORMAL" C&R firearms? What's a "normal" one? One that isn't a commeorative? I used my examples as quick and to-the-point examples. Is a Czech CZ82 pistol "normal" enough? How about a Russian or a Romainian SKS? Or a pre'78 Colt Woodsman? Commemorative, NFA, surplus....the point is that it doesn't matter; there are plenty of less-than-50-year-old firearms that are C&R and in the eys of the law, a firearm is a firearm regardless of the amount of engraving on it.
As for "devices" that's the term used by the 1934 NFA (26USC CH53) because it represents more than just "guns." A suppressor is a firearm under federal law, although most of us would question how easy it is to shoot someone with one unless [another] firearm was first attached. Consider too, a grenade is an NFA-defined "destructive device" just like a Striker 12 (aka "streetsweeper") shotgun. Both are classed as "destructive devices" even though one is a firearm and one is not. QED the term "device" when used as I used it above (in reference to NFA-controlled "stuff" is wholly appropriate.)

Second: The statement that "'Regular' [firearms] ... can be transported by C&R holder, anywhere, & they don't have to be Moving their Household from one location to another" is again untrue and incorrect. Where did anyone say anything about moving one's household? (I didn't.) Regardless a C&R FFL-holder cannot possess a friearm in a location where such possession is unlawful. Period. As a C&R FFL I cannot lawfully take my C&R CZ82 pistol into New York City, Chicago, or Washignton DC.

No offense is intended towards Bob or anyone else, nor is this an attack one anyone but if we're going to go proclaiming "it's the law" let's try and make sure we're giving a reasonable rendition of said law, and not something that we "think" or that n"ought to be" law. There are enoguh laws on the books without having to confuse ourselves over non-existent laws or incorrect citations.

HTH

#30 mrhell

mrhell
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,414
  • 627 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 30 October 2008 - 04:56 AM

Gentlemen,

This thread is approaching "beating a dead horse" status. There is without doubt, INCORRECT information in previous posts. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

In an effort to assist those interested in possibly applying for an FFL and to convey correct information, I will restrain from typing a long reply and simply offer you Federal law. When it comes to committing a potential felony, I highly recommend that everyone ignore all opinions and interpretations and simply read the laws. Debate if you must, but the links below list all the answers and definitions. Stay legal and enjoy your second amendment RIGHTS.

Curio & Relics Information

C&R Index page

Main BATF Firearms page

Have questions? Contact your local BATF field office and ask them! Dont worry, they will not raid your house if you contact them and ask gun law questions. Or you can also e-mail them to get what they say back in writing.

I hope this information helps at least one person. ;)

Edited by mrhell, 30 October 2008 - 04:57 AM.


#31 jhs1970426

jhs1970426
  • Members
    • Member ID: 4,145
  • 272 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upper Freehold, NJ

Posted 31 October 2008 - 06:14 AM

Gentlemen,

This thread is approaching "beating a dead horse" status. There is without doubt, INCORRECT information in previous posts. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

In an effort to assist those interested in possibly applying for an FFL and to convey correct information, I will restrain from typing a long reply and simply offer you Federal law. When it comes to committing a potential felony, I highly recommend that everyone ignore all opinions and interpretations and simply read the laws. Debate if you must, but the links below list all the answers and definitions. Stay legal and enjoy your second amendment RIGHTS.

Curio & Relics Information

C&R Index page

Main BATF Firearms page

Have questions? Contact your local BATF field office and ask them! Dont worry, they will not raid your house if you contact them and ask gun law questions. Or you can also e-mail them to get what they say back in writing.

I hope this information helps at least one person. ;)



Well, ALL the information here helps me out at least http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif I asked about this license to try to see what the professionals here thought about it and to get their honest opinion. I got what i was looking for... and more. all the sites lead me to more then what i needed to find out about (and my head is still spinning from it lol). But what i really wanted was just some honest opinions. I really did not want to read about politics because i cant stand politics at times. but in this case, im glad some of you brought it up and sent me to those sites that you posted! SO i am grateful for all you info. and I am that one person that was helped!! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#32 Orgone

Orgone
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,588
  • 227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY Metro area

Posted 04 November 2008 - 10:42 AM

There's one thing that you have to remember about the state of New Jersey. In this state, the ATF does not do a backround check on individuals for an FFL! The state police have a unique agreement with the ATF stating that the ATF will NOT begin the licensing process for an FFL in the state of New Jersey until the state of New Jersey grants a STATE license to retail firearms. The state of New Jersey's backround check and qualification process is SOOO difficult to pass that the ATF grants the FFL without further investigation as New Jerseys backround check is much more intense! Thats why there's not many gun shops around here anymore. While the C&R license is not an FFL (though many view it as such) it does require the holder to follow the same bookeeping regulations as an FFL. By holding a C&R license the ATF (and in NJ the state police) retains the right to examine your records at anytime. The 4th amendment is alive and well in NJ, but you must comply with their request. Failure todo so would pretty much require you to surrender your license. They would have grounds for a search warrant if you refused.
New Jersey is absolutely the WORST state in the union to be a firearms enthusiest. Just try to get a carry permit, you can't even own an M1 carbine here. People from other states can't believe what it's like here. There are NO gun shows in New Jersey because you can't sell a gun outside of your home and all permits must be obtained and laws must be followed. A $20. Daisy BB pistol is exactly the same as a Glock 26 under NJ state law! Also don't get caught outside your home with any hollow point ammunition, possession is a felony, the same thing for owning a firearms magazine that holds more than 15 rounds. :blink:

#33 Bill in VA

Bill in VA
  • Members
    • Member ID: 302
  • 448 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Virginia

Posted 05 November 2008 - 05:35 AM

... the C&R license is not an FFL (though many view it as such) ...


By the "many [who] view it as such", do you mean the BATF? They most assuredly do consider it a federal firearms license. Not all FFLs are for dealing, in fact only one type is: the Type 01 FFL is for dealers. But there are plenty of others....a Type 03 FFL is for collectors, Type 06 is for manufacturers of ammunition, Type 07 FFL is for manufacturers of firearms (other than NFA destructive devices...that's a Type 10 FFL and a Type 09 FFL is for dealers in NFA destructive devices), and a Type 08 is an importer's FFL (otehr than NFA DDs) and a Type 11 FFL is an importer of NFA DDs. Al;l FFLs can buy and sell across state lines, the Type refers to exactly what they can buy/sell/manufacture.
HTH

#34 Orgone

Orgone
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,588
  • 227 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NY Metro area

Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:24 AM

By the "many [who] view it as such", do you mean the BATF? They most assuredly do consider it a federal firearms license. Not all FFLs are for dealing, in fact only one type is: the Type 01 FFL is for dealers. But there are plenty of others....a Type 03 FFL is for collectors, Type 06 is for manufacturers of ammunition, Type 07 FFL is for manufacturers of firearms (other than NFA destructive devices...that's a Type 10 FFL and a Type 09 FFL is for dealers in NFA destructive devices), and a Type 08 is an importer's FFL (otehr than NFA DDs) and a Type 11 FFL is an importer of NFA DDs. Al;l FFLs can buy and sell across state lines, the Type refers to exactly what they can buy/sell/manufacture.
HTH


As a gun show dealer of militaria for 30 years, I have witnessed several C & R license holders who regularly bought "LOTS" of rifles from importers and sold them freely at gun shows with no paperwork whatsoever! I couldn't believe that the importers would take a C & R license to begin with, let alone ship 20 rifles at a time to these guys! While the mandatory backround checks at gun shows put an end to this, I'm sure it did not end their careers in selling. I can't believe that this one guy I knew hasn't been caught. I warned him years ago that some day he is going to have to explain to the ATF what he did with the many 100s of SKS's, Moison Nagants, Enfields and Mausers he bought and doesn't have today!!!


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users