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C&R License? Does anyone know about these?


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#1 jhs1970426

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 06:46 PM

i think my brain just exploded. I was reading about Hobbes in an ehtics textbook and decided to take a break and look up M1 garands. I stumbled upon this website about a C&R license. I read the articles a few times (cause I have that kind of time ;) ) and was wondering what you gun owners and collectors thought.

According to the site, you can purchase from CMP without the shooting qualifications with this license. This is my concern, being I do not belong to ANY gun club or shooting range of the sort (i just have my NJ Firearm ID card), and yet I would still like to purchase from CMP down the road.

Do you guys this it would be worth getting a C&R license? WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK ABOUT THIS? does anyone have one of these?

And the big question... with this license, would one be able to own a Carbine in the wonderful state of New Jersey if it is original and date prior to 1958, as the site states? (i know, i know, NJ gunlaws suck. once again, i am NOT trying to put down my home state or anything, i am just seeking as much info as possible)

Thanks in advanced!! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Here is the site...
http://www.surplusri...ffl03/index.asp

#2 Cowboy5995

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 10:12 PM

Hey they are completely worth it. You fill out the form though the BATF and pay your $30 for 3 years and in a few weeks you get your licece then its off to the local kinkos and make about a billion copies and a few hundred faxes. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/w00t.gif Besides being able to participated in the CMP program for CHEAP M1 Garands and Carbines but many distributes will give you a discount some some stuff. Basically this licecens lets you collect any rifle that is on the Curio and Relics list. Baskically any firearm that is roughly 50 years old or is in some way odd. The list is can be found on the BATF website. Go here to get a FAQ when it comes to C&R and a list of venders who give discounts. I know Midway gives a 10% discount

http://www.surplusri...ffl03/index.asp

I know my C&R has paid for its self over and over. I saved way more than $30 on my first order.

How this applies to NJ laws I have no clue. Perhaps its time to your local gun store or local police for some answers.

Edited by Cowboy5995, 21 October 2008 - 10:16 PM.


#3 gunbunny

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 02:57 AM

I had one a few years ago. I never used it but if you plan to do some serious gun collecting it might be a good idea. I don't know if the rules have changed but when I had it you could buy guns out of state (like at gun shows, etc.) or in gun shops without going through the waiting period. As long as the weapon was one listed on the Relic and Curio list. When you get your license you will get a thick book that lists all the items considered relics and curios. The list includes everything from gun canes to howitzers if I remember correctly. You get one copy of your license and can make copies from that one as indicated above. Be prepared to get lots of flyers, updates, etc. from the BATF. They treat you like you are a regular firearm dealer even though your license is different.

#4 paul1440

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 03:28 AM

I have one, just got it recently. For only $35 for three(?) years IMO it is worth it. It is an easy process. Read the rules and regulations as to what is a C&R and what is not. For instance, a M1 Garand rifle is C&R eligible but a receiver or a barrelled receiver. Also IIRC one of the major online gun shops (Midway?) offers discounts to C&R holders.

As others have mentioned I'd ask someone in NJ who is familiar with its gun laws as to whether or not a C&R would satisfy the carbine rules.

R,
Paul

#5 mrhell

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 04:12 AM

A Curio and Relics license is well worth the $30 fee for 3 years. Keep in mind that it is not a dealers license. You can certainly buy and sell, but consider yourself a "Collector" who is buying and selling to enhance your personal collection. If you start turning allot of rifles quickly for profit, you'll have some explaining to do should you be audited. Just keep accurate records for your firearms that are considered C&R and follow the rules and you'll be fine. If you decide to become licensed and later change your mind, just let your license expire; three years goes by quickly. You are not obligated to keep any records if you are no longer licensed BTW.

Also it is my understanding that M1 Carbines are classified as an illegal Assault Weapon under NJ Law. A permit to purchase can be obtained but an applicant must qualify for a carry permit and show that public safety and welfare requires issuance (very difficult to obtain). However they can be stored out of state. Unlawful possession is a third degree crime with up to 5 years in jail and $7500,00 in fines.

NJ and CA are in desperate need of political cleansing... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/mad.gif

#6 SGM (ret.)

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 05:54 AM

If all you're interested in is making a purchase or two (or three, or...) from CMP, then you might want to consider a membership to the Grand Collectors Association (GCA) The Garand Collectors Association

Membership satisfies the shooting qualifications / shooting club membership qualifications for the CMP. The GCA forwards its membership roles monthly to the CMP, and your membership number is all you will need. GCA membership will not restrict you to only purchasing a Garand from CMP either.

Membership is only $25 annually, and you get the quarterly "GCA Journal" to boot. Membership is worth it just for the journal and contact with other collectors.

However, if you really want to purchase other C&R eligible firearms, the the C&R liscense is worth it. Be aware though that, as "mrhell" says, there are some legal requirements vis-a-vis records keeping that you must maintain. The records are subject to audit at any time during your license period. It may be more than you want to deal with. (Although I've never had a problem with BATF or heard of anyone else that has, either, in regards to the records keeping.)

For just a CMP purchase, I'd go with the GCA membership. You can let it lapse after the single year you make you purchase(s) from the CMP. No records keeping required!

Mike

#7 Cowboy5995

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:29 PM

Well the problem with just the CGA membership is that it only takes care of one requriement. The other is you have to prove further marksmenship skills. IE a C&R. CCW. a form filled out by a range official, or a few other things.

#8 mrhell

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 04:04 AM

Here's the current requirements. I get the impression that some folks think it's more difficult than it really is, or perhaps it's just laziness. Not that big of a deal really. I guess it just boils down to how bad you want a CMP rifle.


Eligibilty Requirements for Purchase

By law, the CMP can sell surplus military firearms, ammunition, parts and other items only to members of CMP affiliated clubs who are also U.S. citizens, over 18 years of age and who are legally eligible to purchase a firearm.
A small number of crated rifles

Proof of U.S. Citizenship:

You must provide a copy of a U.S. birth certificate, passport, proof of naturalization, or any official government document that shows birth in the U.S. or states citizenship as U.S.

Proof of Age:
You must provide proof of age. Usually proof of citizenship also provides proof of age. In those cases where it may not, a driver’s license is sufficient.

Membership in CMP Affiliated Organization:
You must provide a copy of your current membership card or other proof of membership. This requirement cannot be waived. The CMP currently has over 2,000 affiliated organizations located in many parts of the country.

Membership in many of these organizations costs $25.00 or less and can be accomplished online. A listing of affiliated organizations can be found by clicking on our Club Search web page at http://clubs.odcmp.c.../clubSearch.cgi. If you have any difficulty in locating a club, please contact the CMP at 256-835-8455 or by emailing CMP Customer Service. We will find one for you. In addition to shooting clubs, the CMP also has several special affiliates. Membership in these organizations satisfies our requirement for purchase. These special affiliates include: Congressionally chartered veterans' organizations such as the VFW, AL, DAV, MCL, etc. U.S. Military services (active or reserves), National Guard, to include retirees. Professional 501©3 law enforcement organizations and associations such as the FOP, NAPO, NSA, etc.

Note: Club membership IS required for purchase of rifles, parts, and ammunition.

Club membership is NOT required for instructional publications or videos or CMP memorabilia.


Marksmanship or other Firearms Related Activity:

You must provide proof of participation in a marksmanship related activity or otherwise show familiarity with the safe handling of firearms and range procedures. Your marksmanship related activity does not have to be with highpower rifles; it can be with smallbore rifles, pistols, air guns or shotguns. Proof of marksmanship participation can be provided by documenting any of the following:

- Current or past military service.
- Current or past law enforcement service
- Participation in a rifle, pistol, air gun or shotgun competition (provide copy of results bulletin).
- Completion of a marksmanship clinic that included live fire training (provide a copy of the certificate of completion or a statement from the instructor).
- Distinguished, Instructor, or Coach status.
- Concealed Carry License.
- Firearms Owner Identification Cards that included live fire training.
- FFL or C&R license.
- Completion of a Hunter Safety Course that included live fire training.
- Certification from range or club official or law enforcement officer witnessing shooting activity. A form for use in completing and certifying your range firing can be downloaded from the CMP web site at http://www.odcmp.com...arksmanship.pdf

No proof of marksmanship required if over age 60. proof of club membership and citizenship required for all ages.
NOTE: Proof of marksmanship activity is not required for purchase of ammunition, parts, publications or memorabilia.

Be Legally Eligible to Purchase a Firearm:
The information you supply on your application will be submitted by the CMP to the FBI National Instant Criminal Check System (NICS) to verify you are not prohibited by Federal, State or Local law from acquiring or possessing a rifle. Your signature on the Purchaser Certification portion of the purchase application authorizes the CMP to initiate the NICS check and authorizes the FBI to inform CMP of the result. IMPORTANT: If your State or locality requires you to first obtain a license, permit, or Firearms Owner ID card in order to possess or receive a rifle, you must enclose a photocopy of your license, permit, or card with the application for purchase.

Order Form and Purchaser Certification and Agreement:
Order forms and other required documents may be downloaded from http://www.odcmp.com.../1orderform.pdf. For those customers who receive our hard-copy catalog, we recommend they make several copies of the blank form for use in placing future orders. Customers should complete both the Order Form and the Purchaser Certification and Agreement and sign it before a notary. Orders received without notarized signature will not be processed.

Repeat Customers:

In the summer of 2003, the CMP revised the purchase forms and streamlined procedures for repeat customers. If you complete a new Universal Purchaser Certification and Agreement to buy a rifle from the CMP, signed before a Notary Public on or after July 1, 2003, you may for a period of three (3) years thereafter submit an application to purchase additional rifles, parts or ammunition without having the Purchaser Certification and Agreement notarized - provided that the “SHIP TO” address on the order form remains exactly the same.

Although for repeat orders you will not have to have the forms notarized, hard copy liability/order/certification forms – pages 1a,2a,and 3a – must still be completed and sent to the CMP with original (wet) signatures. These orders may not be faxed or emailed.

After three years a new notarized Universal Purchaser Certification and Agreement will be required for any additional rifle purchase. Any change of address on the order form automatically will require a new notarized Universal Purchaser Certification and Agreement.

Please note that this streamlined procedure is available only to customers who have completed a notarized “Universal” Purchaser Certification and Agreement. An application submitted on an earlier form (dated before summer 2003) will still be processed by CMP, but for that transaction only; it will not be accepted for repeat sales.

Proof of citizenship, age, CMP-affiliated club membership and competitive shooting participation, and any copy of any license, permit, or Firearms Owner ID card required by your State or locality submitted with your initial “Universal” application will be kept on file by the CMP. If any item of proof above has expired, you must submit proof of current status with any subsequent application.

#9 Chris_B

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 08:50 AM

I had forgotten that the C&R was filling the requirement for the "marksmanship or other related activity". I knew it was a way to get a rifle but I had forgotten what requirement it fulfilled- the "other related activity" part slipped my mind!

I have to mention that I couldn't possibly be happier with my CMP M1. Some people regard them as 'so-so', which is not my experience with any of the CMP rifles I've fired handled or seen, and I can't help but wonder- is this reputation with some folks just because the prices seem low compared to other places?

My Service Grade SA from 1944 with the 1946 barrel cost me 600 bucks from the CMP. People sometimes think from the price the barrel was shot out or it was a re-weld or something.

It's not :) And the CMP really stands behind their sales. My bullet guide was bent, making loading a clip difficult, and my trigger guard had a little side to side play in it and I didn't like the look of the lugs. But the rifle worked fine.

I called the CMP and they shipped me a replacement bullet guide and trigger guard for nothing, not even postage. I can't say that private sellers or gunshops would stand behind a sale like that

#10 jhs1970426

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 10:33 AM

I had forgotten that the C&R was filling the requirement for the "marksmanship or other related activity". I knew it was a way to get a rifle but I had forgotten what requirement it fulfilled- the "other related activity" part slipped my mind!

I have to mention that I couldn't possibly be happier with my CMP M1. Some people regard them as 'so-so', which is not my experience with any of the CMP rifles I've fired handled or seen, and I can't help but wonder- is this reputation with some folks just because the prices seem low compared to other places?

My Service Grade SA from 1944 with the 1946 barrel cost me 600 bucks from the CMP. People sometimes think from the price the barrel was shot out or it was a re-weld or something.

It's not :) And the CMP really stands behind their sales. My bullet guide was bent, making loading a clip difficult, and my trigger guard had a little side to side play in it and I didn't like the look of the lugs. But the rifle worked fine.

I called the CMP and they shipped me a replacement bullet guide and trigger guard for nothing, not even postage. I can't say that private sellers or gunshops would stand behind a sale like that


Going by what I have read in this forum, I would deff buy from CMP not only because their prices are good, but mainly their reputation. I read here that CMP checks all guns, test fires, ect. I would do business with them in a NY minute. then again i would also buy from an independent seller/collector too depending on condition of rifle, ect.

#11 h2oman

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:30 AM

Is it $30 or $35 for the three year C&R license?

#12 jhs1970426

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:48 AM

Is it $30 or $35 for the three year C&R license?


The C&R site says $30 for the 3 year

#13 MPage

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 10:52 PM

I was under the impression that one doesn't need a C&R license in order to purchase from CMP.

#14 Chris_B

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 04:45 AM

I was under the impression that one doesn't need a C&R license in order to purchase from CMP.



Your impression is 100% correct

An excerpt:

"Proof of marksmanship participation can be provided by documenting any of the following:

- Current or past military service.
- Current or past law enforcement service
- Participation in a rifle, pistol, air gun or shotgun competition (provide copy of results bulletin).
- Completion of a marksmanship clinic that included live fire training (provide a copy of the certificate of completion or a statement from the instructor).
- Distinguished, Instructor, or Coach status.
- Concealed Carry License.
- Firearms Owner Identification Cards that included live fire training.
- FFL or C&R license.
- Completion of a Hunter Safety Course that included live fire training.
- Certification from range or club official or law enforcement officer witnessing shooting activity. "


You need one of the above; not all of the above. C&R can satisfy th criteria but it is not a requirement :)

Interestingly, the only current qualification I have is my C&R even though I have a Class A high capacity pistol permit- my city will not issue a concealed carry license to me. I think "managing to get your Class A high cap in Boston" should satisfy the "proof in marksmanship participation" after the hoops I went through! :lol: Although since I had to go to the Boston Police range and qualify there, I guess I can argue that law enforcement witnessed my shooting activity and did document it by recommending issuance of my Class A... hmmm.

Edited by Chris_B, 25 October 2008 - 04:52 AM.


#15 mrhell

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 04:48 AM

I was under the impression that one doesn't need a C&R license in order to purchase from CMP.


You'll need to re-read the "Marksmanship or other Firearms Related Activity" section in an earlier post. You do not need a C&R license to purchase rifles, it's just one of many options that meet one of the requirements.

#16 Chris_B

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 04:50 AM

Oh, I beat you to it mrhell! You need faster fingers

#17 mrhell

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 05:01 AM

LOL yes and perhaps stronger coffee. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/naughty.gif

#18 Chris_B

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 05:12 AM

Coffee? That sounds suspiciously like "breakfast". That meal and I have never seen eye to eye. I can't decide if I'm going shooting today or not, but I need to haul my lazy butt off this chair. See you guys around!

#19 mrhell

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 05:45 AM

Coffee? That sounds suspiciously like "breakfast". That meal and I have never seen eye to eye. I can't decide if I'm going shooting today or not, but I need to haul my lazy butt off this chair. See you guys around!


LOL.... Chris, I can relate to such difficult decisions and here's what I do in such situations.

First I get away from the PC and while loading my truck with 3 or 4 randomly picked rifles and ammo to match, I go think things over and make plans for the day while I'm shooting. The results are I always have a GREAT day regardless of what I end up doing (or not doing) later on. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/w00t.gif

#20 Chris_B

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 05:17 PM

Well, you'll be happy to know I was shooting my M1911A1 and my M1 Garand today. And yes, it was a good day!

#21 jhs1970426

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 07:19 PM

Well, you'll be happy to know I was shooting my M1911A1 and my M1 Garand today. And yes, it was a good day!


well jeez! rub it in our faces some more! :lol: http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif im sure it was a good day. Heck just seeing a garand and 1911 in the same day is a good day http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif :lol:

#22 Orgone

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 09:29 AM

jhs1970426, a few years ago I asked Evan Nappen, who is considered the top firearms lawyer in the state of New Jersey about getting a C & R license. His response was that he highly recommended that I DON'T get one, especially in the State of New Jersey. He told me that the license has few advantages in our state and what you give up in rights was not worth the advantages you gain. The license grants you NO privileges to own weapons that are banned under New Jersey state law (such as an M1 carbine) and you open yourself up to no warrant inspections by both the feds and NJ state police at any time. After considering it and talking to some NJ C & R license holders, I did not apply for one. Most of the NJ C & R holders I asked have since given up their license for the reasons I mentioned.

#23 Bill in VA

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 09:29 AM

... you open yourself up to no warrant inspections by both the feds and NJ state police at any time. ....


No-warrant seearches at any time??? Since when did the Fourth Amendment to the United States' Constitution get suspended? (Obamma's not in office yet!) For what it's worth, I hear the same thing said about machinegun ownership..."It'll open up your home to random searches and checks." It doesn't.

I can't speak directly to New Jersey law, but as for federal law, having an FFL, C&R or otherwise, does not negate your Constitutional rights to privacy as protected by the Fourth Amendment. By holding an FFL you agree to one compliance inspection per year wherein the BATF auditor (not a Special Agent...if they show up, you've likely bigger problems than simple records keeping errors) will check your invnetory against your A&D books (A&D=Acquisition and Disposition.)
The nice thing about having a C&R FFL is that as a C&R FFL-holder though, you have the option of having your compliance inspection at the nearest BATF field office instead of your home if you prefer. A manufacturer or dealer does not have that option/luxury. Furthermore, and for the record, a compliance inspection is definitely not the same thing as a search. A compliance audit does not give the BATF the right or authority to go through your house, your gun safe, or even to look at any C&R firearms not acquired as a licensee, nor any non-C&R firearms.

Perhaps New Jersey requires an FFL-holder to submit to a state-level compliance audit...I don't know. But if they do I can't imagine they'd demand unfettered, on-demand access to one's home, and if so, I'd be interested in seeing not only the relevant section of the New Jersey state code that would permit/authorize this, but also some supportive case law.

That said, one thing that is true is that having a C&R FFL (or any FFL for that matter) does not negate state law. You're correct that holding a valid C&R FFL won't let you skirt state firearms' laws/restrictions/prohibitions any more than the '34 NFA would allow you to own a machinegun in a state that prohibits them.

While a C&R FFL may or may not be of much value to the New Jersey firearms collector (it's up to the individual to decide if it'd be of any value, regardless of their stae of residence) spreading confusion and misconceptions about unwarrranted searches isn't going to help him make up his mind.

EDIT: By the way, I've held a C&R FFL for many years now and never been audited, nor do I know of anyone who has been (other than the internet rumors of "a friend of my uncle's boss's cousin's girlfriend was audited.")

Edited by Bill in VA, 29 October 2008 - 09:30 AM.


#24 jhs1970426

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 10:26 AM

jhs1970426, a few years ago I asked Evan Nappen, who is considered the top firearms lawyer in the state of New Jersey about getting a C & R license. His response was that he highly recommended that I DON'T get one, especially in the State of New Jersey. He told me that the license has few advantages in our state and what you give up in rights was not worth the advantages you gain. The license grants you NO privileges to own weapons that are banned under New Jersey state law (such as an M1 carbine) and you open yourself up to no warrant inspections by both the feds and NJ state police at any time. After considering it and talking to some NJ C & R license holders, I did not apply for one. Most of the NJ C & R holders I asked have since given up their license for the reasons I mentioned.


That makes sense Orgone, Seems like there are more headaches then advantages. I have read everyones input and have been online reading other forums about this. I do not need the police coming into my neighborhood and searching my house just because i have some card that allows me to collect antique firearms, warrant or not. this is something I do not need happening in my home. I already gave up the privacy right when applying for the FID card and filling out all that dam paper work AND waiting about 3 months for a response. This is a headache that i do not need. I appreciate all the input on this. I am just going to stick with my FID card and my little 10/22 rifle and then worry about the NEXT BIG HEADACHE, getting a Pitsol permit and M1911 down the road, later on.

#25 mrhell

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:26 PM

Wow, looks like NJ government is successfully dumbing-down the 2nd amendment and conforming many who take residence there; sad.


For those who do not live in NJ or CA, let me assure you that obtaining a curio and relic license is about as much of a headache as getting a drivers license.... (only there is no driving test). :lol: Although this is a personal choice and to each their own, I would like to offer those out there considering to apply for a C&R accurate information which has a much lower "fear factor".

Basically, the advantages of being licensed is you can have out of state, C&R firearms shipped directly to your house without going through a local dealer. Also if you buy such an arm from a local dealer, there is no background check; you just give them a signed copy of your license and that's it. In addition, most suppliers (such as Brownell's, Midway, etc.), offer discounts of 10% or more on products.

In my area most dealers charge anywhere from $35-$50 or more to transfer a firearm to an individual. The cost of a C&R license is $30 for a three year period; renewals are also $30 for three years. So if you have an interest in older firearms (50 years or older), and think you may buy more than one over the next three years, then perhaps a C&R license is for you. You will be saving money just on the first transfer alone, let alone if you buy more including supplies.

If you are worried about big brother "noticing" you because you hold a C&R, then consider all your past firearm purchases and tax form information.... too late, you are already on their radar. Your main obligation for being licensed is to simply keep record of only C&R firearms; who you buy them from and who you sell them too. Again, this only applies to C&R eligible arms, not that 20 year old shotgun you just bought at the gun show. If you decide not to renew your license, you are NOT required to keep any records and can destroy them if you want.

As for audits, the BATF may request to review your C&R records. They must give you advanced notice and cannot just show up at your door requesting this. Also, YOU have the option to visit your local field office if preferred. Lesson here is just keep accurate records, follow the rules and there will not be a problem. If you worried that your house will be raided, they can do that to anyone if provoked.

Applying is easy, simply request the forms via the web. Fill out two copies, one copy gets mailed to the BATF with your $30 check, the other gets mailed to your local law enforcement officer (i.e. Sheriff). Each form has 4 pages I believe, nothing major at all. Also, the local copy is simply an FYI for them and there is no local requirement to meet. It can take anywhere from one to six months to receive your license and you can start making copies and use it right away. You always use and sign copies; never the original.

That's it in a nut shell guys. It's really not a big deal and can really save you time and money. For more information visit:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm


Type 03 - COLLECTOR OF CURIOS AND RELICS.
(pertains exclusively to firearms classified as curios and relics, and it's purpose is to facilitate a personal collection. It is NOT a license to buy and sell curios and relics. 18 U.S.C 923(B)

Fee: $30.00 for three (3) years.

Application: ATF Form 7 CR (5310.16)


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