Interesting WWI Dallas pattern wing from eBay

[pfrost]

This topic showed up on one of the WAF threads. It is for this ebay auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/352066914603

 

It is a modified one piece wing made from what appears to be a rare Dallas wing variation (broad shield Eisenstadt pattern) The broad shield Dallas wing is rather rare and relatively unknown pattern.

 

The interesting thing about this wing is the way it is made. Here is the thing, I have had the opportunity to see one of the finest WWI wing collections in the world (some know him as the Wing King) and he has a couple of these 1-piece/converted Dallas wings in his collection. He thinks that this was a later attempt to reduce the cost and time it took to assemble the Dallas wings and take advantage of the popularity of the one piece versions.

 

Sadly, the activity of many of the "old guys" seems to have dropped off by a great deal, but this is a very interesting wing that would be worthy of greater discussion. ESPECIALLY on a wing forum.

 

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[cwnorma]

Patrick,

 

I'll be upfront and say I bid on this wing--I didn't win. I did not go in too deep because I had reservations and really wanted to see it in hand... But, I thought I saw enough in the auction photos to take a shot.

 

It is interesting.

 

In my opinion, on the positive side:

- It appears to be crisply die struck using a medium-thick planchet, in three pieces, with spacers, and U-shaped loops to affix the wings to the shield. I believe I can see mounds of silver solder. These sorts of construction techniques seem to be consistent with the WW1 era

- The pin itself is an early T-bar, consistent, if generally thought to be a little earlier, with respect to era

 

On the other hand, again, in my opinion, on the negative side:

- The cut-outs between the feather tips seem somewhat wide and inexpertly executed

- The US seems somewhat off-center, and maybe a little crude. Although some, non-BB&B, so-called Dallas wings (some people say Eisenstadt, but I'm not so sure about that) exhibit a little crudeness in the US, this badge may be slightly more so.

- This style of safety catch generally came into use at the tail end of the time this wing would have been "regulation" but could also be a replacement. Many badges had long lives and findings were broken and replaced. If this were the only negative, I would ignore it.

 

It is not marked sterling, and it has a strange grey pallor--this may be a function of the photos. Had I won it, I would have gently cleaned it and tested the gold content of the US. If it was sterling, and if the US tested somewhere between 8k and 14k, I would have included those measurements in the positive column. If the badge was not sterling, and the US were brass or some other non-precious yellow alloy or metal, I would count those as negatives.

 

So in my estimation, this wing is something of a mixed bag. I had enough of a level of comfort to have bid, but at the gut level I admit I still had some reservations. Given the price it sold for, whoever ended up with the badge should not feel too badly either way.

 

 

 

Chris

[pfrost]

You are spot on Chris. The ones I handled in the Wing King collection were very similar in construction, including the U connectors. Also the finish wasn't very good. In fact, he even had one with the US absent.

 

Sadly, while I have some photos of his wings, I promised SPECIFICALLY never to share them on line. Although, I suspect that his examples may one day show up in David Hill's book.

 

Art has some wings that I think no one other than him and the original maker of the wing have ever seen. David Hill.... publish your damn book, my friend (If you are lurking here).

 

One positive that I saw about the cuts. Notice that some of them have polishing residue in the gap. To me that is a wonderful sign of a wing that has been around for some time. I suspect the pallor is poor lighting. I wish I had been in different financial situation as I would have bid too.

 

Also there was some "deafening" silence about this wing on the external wing channels.... hahha

[Kimo]

I'm far an expert on these kinds of wings, but just the overall look just doesn't seem right to my eye, though since I am not an expert I could easily be entirely wrong.

 

I do know that WW 1 wings were being duplicated and sold right from the start - i.e. during and immediately after the war - as pilots at that time were something akin to today's rock stars and movie stars and demand for all things aviation has always far exceeded the supply. As such, while age can be a factor, it is not a deciding factor in aviation related artifacts. Also, the best and most famous collectors and also museums will always have things their collections that are not real whether they are collectors of aviation artifacts, or paintings, or coins, or stamps or whatever. So, while something coming from or identical items in a famous collection or even from a famous museum is not going to be sufficient proof. Rock solid provenance is the only way to be 99 percent sure, but even then you need to be sure that the vet who originally owned the wing did not have it replaced after the war either immediately or at some point in the many decades following due the original getting lost or broken. This whole caveat increases in proportion to the value of the artifact.

[pfrost]

I believe that the Eisenstadt Jewelry company made about 4-5 or so variations of their Dallas wings, probably around 1918-1920 or so. Although I would agree that much of the public were interested in flight, I am not so sure that the regular pilot wing was seen as a rock star or that wings were being duplicated because demand exceeded supply. I suspect that the true golden age of public infatuation with flying started reaching its peak in the 1930's. Howard Hughes movie "Hells Angeles" was made in 1930 and I believe they simply used old stock uniforms insignia for the most part.

 

Going back to Eisenstadt, these wings are characterized by 3 large feathers in the shoulder (BB&B had multiple smaller feathers). Of the traditional 3 piece wings on cloth covered backing there were 2 variations, a "slender shield" and a "broad shield". The broad shield variation seems to be the rarer of the two, but I wonder if that is simply because people haven't looked vary carefully and don't not the difference. While the wings for both the broad and slender shield wings are similar, it was pointed out by Cliff P in a past thread that he found that the wings on the broad shield tended to lack the small cuts between the feathers on the bottom edge, whilst the slender shield wings had those cuts. I have a slender shield Eisenstadt wing and can confirm that in my wing, the cuts do exist. However, I don't know for sure that this is a hard and fast rule.

Then there is another variation in which the parts are directly added to a black painted backing. This variation is frequently found hallmarked LE and Eagle. Eagle probably being a trademark or model name. See the pictures of this variation below (images taken from another thread). Note that the catch is slightly different than the "usual" barrel catch found on the traditional Dallas wings. I have handled these wings and found them to be rather light weight.

 

The 4th variations are the one piece, non-backed wings that started this thread. They seem to have been made from what appears to be an amalagation of cut feather slender shield wings and a broad shield wing shield (that is mouthful).

 

Things about Eisenstadt that I have noted.

1) the "US" isn't always the nicest and isn't always well placed. With careful study you can see that most of the Eisenstadt wings are kind of cruddy, especially compared to the other Dallas wing manufacturers.

2) As stated above, some of the wings have little cuts between the feathers, and some don't.

3) The broad shield wing is rather rare and to my knowledge has not been faked, especially as part of the more common "House of Swords" reproductions. In fact, most people have no idea that their is a "broad shield" variation. So the old caveat that "everything is faked"may not actually be true.

4) The finish on these wings frequently leaves something to be desired. Many Eisestadt wings look like pinto beans, with a blotchy finish. Mine is so ugly it hurts my feelings.

5) I believe that the dies used to make these wings were well used and you see that some Eisenstadt wings have very fine details and others look rather washed out. I suspect that is due to overuse and the fact that the 1-piece version was likely a much later variation and has some terrible detail supports that idea.

 

Patrick

[pfrost]

Here is composite of the three wings, with my slender shield wing on the bottom.

 

Ultimately, it is hard to know for sure until one handles the wings in person, but I am pretty certain that the middle wing is a good (rare) variation in the Eisenstadt family.

[pfrost]

NOTE-- While I can't share images of the collection I did confirm that there were 2 of these 1 piece wings. One had the feathers with the cuts and one had the feathers without. Both had the broad shield.

[pfrost]

In fact, looking at the composite picture above, their appears to be marked differences in the wings. Note that the broad shield wings are more curves with an almost "S"shape that hugs the shield, while in the slender shield, the wings have a more straight profile on the edge facing the shield. Also the very bottom wing tips are slightly different.

[pfrost]

UPDATE: I sent the auction link to the Wing King and asked him to do a comparison to his wing. This is what he said:

 

"It is very similar and just looking at the photos I didn't like the coloration. Some major differences are; mine is stamped STERLING above the sunken part of the shield, the tips of my feathers are more pointed (not rounded off), the area between shield and wing is stippled, my US letters are more narrow, the pin catch and hinge are different and the sunken part is better defined."

 

So there you have it.

[cwnorma]

Patrick,

 

Interesting thoughts.

 

Are we certain the 3-feather shoulder = Eisenstadt? Or has that become a shibboleth of the hobby?

 

We can say for certain that the "Eagle" badge with the Eisenstadt hallmark was made by that company. But what of the others?

 

For me it comes down to the answer to this question; "Why would Eisenstadt go to the trouble to cut four distinctly different, yet exceedingly similar, dies?

 

It seems as though Eisenstadt would instead go for a bold and different design, to attract more buyers--if they were cutting new dies.

 

We know about the patent weirdness going on between Seastrunk and Semans/Heligman in Dallas (U.S. Patent Office 1918). We know that BB&B produced the multi-feather wing based on their advertisement (Pandis 2015), but from there what we think we know about these badges may get muddy.

 

Is it possible, that the "3-feather" wing reportedly illustrated in an Eisenstadt advertisement or catalog (I have heard rumors of this ad or catalog for years, but never actually seen it) is specifically the "Eagle" wing and the others are contemporaneous products of some, as yet unknown, manufacturer?

 

Chris