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The Line Between Honoring and Scavenging


Headhunter5
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I'm new here and it seems everyone in this forum loves and honors these tangible pieces of our military's story. Many of us are combat veterans who would never sully the sacrifices made by those who defend our nation by treating personal service items as if they were no different from collectible Pokemon figurines, but these articles we collect do have intrinsic value that exists even when the veteran and his loved ones are gone.

Militaria can be quite valuable and many of us have bought and sold uniforms, gear, and medals for profit but I sometimes wonder if making them commodities and removing them from the families and communities who supported and loved a veteran is right...

 

Over the years I've talked families out of parting with dad, or grandpa's old uniform more than once and often offer to return any items they decide they'd like to have back at cost. Am I crazy? Has anyone here done that? Anyone here ever hunt down the family of a medal recipient or send a Purple Heart back to its rightful home? https://purpleheartsreunited.org/

 

I've spent a bit of time on this forum over the past few days and have been disheartened to hear about soulless ghouls who, in the name of a collection or a dollar, solicit elderly widows when they are vulnerable and harass Seals on their way to the PX…

Where is the line for you on what is OK and what is out of bounds as collectors, historians, and businessmen? I look forward to your thoughts.

 

 

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Wow - lot of territory covered there.

I've never bought any militaria that was not already being offered for sale at a flea market, antique/junk store, estate sale, auction, etc. Sometimes I don't understand why a family would sell a relative's military items, but I figure if they have decided to sell, then it is fair game.

 

I do not read the obituaries looking for recently deceased vets, and then go hunting the widow or family trying to score grampa's stuff as you say you have done. I think that is out of line whether you are a collector, historian or businessman. That's what gives a hobby like this a bad reputation. Victims won't remember that it was you that bought Grandpa's stuff for pennies on the dollar. They will just paint the entire hobby as lowlife.

 

I don't do this as a business, but I have sold stuff on ebay and at flea markets, because I need to thin the herd. Sometimes I make some money, but profit is not the driver. I think that would take the fun out of collecting for me. I've bought stuff I don't collect, because I know someone that does, and I'll pass it on to them at my cost.

 

Maybe I misunderstood your message, but from my standpoint your tactic of talking a family out of grandpa's stuff puts you in the "soulless ghoul" class.

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Who on here did any of that stuff? Post the link, i sure haven't read it.

 

The one and only time i bought from family (excluding eBay), i think i paid about 200% retail, so...

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Who on here did any of that stuff? Post the link, i sure haven't read it.

 

 

 

I don't believe he was talking about any specific forum members but rather reading about others who do these things. Here is one old thread I found that has some interesting responses.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/11203-question-of-ethics-for-the-forum/?hl=harass&do=findComment&comment=70884

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Sgt. Barney,

I'm new to this medium but should probably be more clear. I've NEVER done those things but have heard of them being done in other forums here and was wondering where folks in this community draw the line. (That was meant as an extreme example of what is out of bounds)

The items I've acquired that I might sell or collect were purchased in auctions, or at estate sales or yard sales, and then if the family is involved I usually ask if they are sure they want to part with the items and offer to return them should the family ever have a change of heart. The rest are from my own service or items I've inherited.

 

Let me be clear. Every generation of my family has served this nation since the Revolutionary war and I lost friends and my leg in Iraq. I despise anyone who would take advantage of a widow or harass a servicemember to snag a collectible.

 

Hopefully this lack of clarity doesn't give me a black eye before I even get started here.

All the Best!

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I purchase my military items at flea markets, estate sales and garage sales. For me obtaining items at these venues is fair game. Its been my experience that these items are sold because there is no family left, the family does not care or they do not understand the meaning behind these personal military items. On one occasion I had the daughter of a WWII military veteran give me her fathers stuff. She stated that there was no one in her family that cared for these items. I stayed in contact with her and she is pleased with what I have done with her fathers stuff. I recently posted an extensive grouping on this forum about a 1949 West Point Graduate on his experience in the Korean war. Some of these items I purchased and other items were entrusted to me because there is no one left in the family. The family member was aware of the respect and honor I have for these items. I have even rescued other items from the dumpster. I do this because I enjoy researching the story behind the items I buy. I have on several occasions sold some of the items back to immediate/extended family members at cost. I do so only if it feels right. My concern is if I sell it back to family members, will the family members sell the items. I do not subscribe to chasing down widows to obtain militaria. I hope I addressed the questions in your post.

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Numerous times over my collecting life I have encountered relatives selling items at estate sales or flea markets that belonged to someone in their family. I have always asked why they are not keeping the items in the family and more often than not the response was along the lines that no one wanted them. At that point, I pretty much figured the issue was resolved and that I had no obligation to pursue the matter further.

 

I have offered the return of many items to families of the veterans who gave me things while they were still living. Upon the passing of their veteran, I have reached out to family members, told them what their relative had given me, and asked if they would like the item(s). On several occasions, the family had no knowledge about what their relative had given me and welcomed the return. Others have declined, stating that if their relative wanted me to have something they felt it was a way of extending the memory of their loved one beyond the immediate family. Several of the gifts from veterans were things that bring good money on today's market, but that's irrelevant to me as I know how I would feel if someone had something that belonged to one of my family members.

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I think you will find the beliefs of our members to be in line with your own.

 

We have had a number of members return items they have collected to family members who have requested them, and have at times gone to great lengths to do so.

 

I believe if you read carefully, you will find accounts on here were people have asked the families very carefully if they wised to part with their items, and often have explained the significance of them. On more than one occasion, our members have convinced families to keep medals even if they were still set on selling off bulkier items such as uniforms and equipment.

 

As for dishonorable behavior, you are going to find that in any endeavor that involves collectibles and money. Most of the experienced collectors on here can tell you horror stories that range from fast talking veterans at VA homes to outright grave robbing. Unfortunately, it is nothing new. But to clarify for you, I believe the great majority of members do not approve of such things.

 

As far as "removing them from the families and communities who supported and loved a veteran is right... ", that is a loaded statement. Quite often it is the families who have put these items up for sale to begin with. And keep in mind, some of these items are not necessarily cherished, but actually are a reminder of painful separation, loss and worry. More than once we have had members report finding items left out in the garbage or for trash pick up.

 

I would caution you that in discussing this topic that there is currently some sensitivity on this issue. We have certain individuals and organizations that are making a lot of press accusing military collectors and dealers as being purely motivated by material gain. Such accusations completely ignore how much of this material would be trashed or become teenage fashion accessories if it were not for the dedication of the collecting community.

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Thanks for the thoughtful responses! It does pain me to see these pieces of a life of service discarded by families but you are correct that there is often no one who wants the items. It's not just militaria though. My wife has a small antique booth and when we go to auctions we often see old family albums, bibles, photos, etc., things you an I might treasure, sold because no one wants all that "old stuff".

 

cutiger83,

Thanks for the link above. There seem to be a number of mature and thoughtful folks on here.

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Headhunter, I owe you an apology as I did misunderstand your message. I think this forum consists of honorable folks with a heartfelt desire to preserve history and the legacy of our veterans. You will find that they pass along a lot of good info regarding the unscrupulous types that give the hobby a bad reputation.

 

Something that always surprises me is to find casket flags at a flea market. It is hard to believe a family would sell or lose track of something like that. As someone mentioned, maybe there are painful memories associated with them. I always pick them up, bring them home, get them cleaned and fly them on holidays. I feel it is a way to let those vets know they are not forgotten.

 

Again, I want to apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

Sincerely,

Richard

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Jennings Lane

A lot of people are simply not interested in keeping things from the past. As mentioned in a previous post, it's not just military relics. I've owned a general line antiques store for many years. I've watched family members throw out boxes of photos, letters, and family memorabilia of every description. Interestingly enough, the people I see do this are not stupid people. They just aren't particularly interested in the past and even less interested in things. This trend is growing. Less is more to this generation. So, in most cases, collectors and dealers are doing a great service to history by preserving things from the past, and that most certainly includes military relics. Someday we might even be compared to the the monks of the dark ages who quietly preserved countless literary treasures, that might have been lost forever. Sadly, we won't be here to say I told you so.

 

See you at OVMS.

 

Andy

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This forum largely feels the same as you do, and those who lack ethics and make it known (often braggingly) are quickly shown the door. As stated, the old hands, especially those who have dealt with Nazi items, have seen or heard tales of obituary chasers, swindlers, and unethical tacticians...we don't condone that on this forum as it tarnishes the hobby and overshadows the good the community often does.

 

Many items come to collectors because the families either don't care about the items, or because they know that we do and will preserve, display, and honor them. I have been given, free of charge, several items from families who are impressed with the meticulous care and research I put into them, and my policy is that such gifts are available to the ones who gave them to me if they ever want them back. And if I paid, at cost they charged, at most.

 

As a combat vet whose lost buddies myself, I often use these items and their stories to educate my junior Marines on our heritage and legacy. I have acquired several blank uniforms to long career Marines. Dozens of hours of research go into learning their tales, hundreds of dollars goes into research sources, restoration, and archival conservation...in addition to the cost of the item itself. I allow photos of my items to be published in books free of charge and share knowledge I've acquired with authors and researchers. The hobby is just a vessel towards the ultimatr goal or preserving and sharing history. At least that's the way I see it

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I think that those of us who collect militaria, feel worse about families parting so easily with this stuff than they do. We see history, memory, sacrifice, honor and patriotism. The families see a lot of old junk that they need to get rid of at an estate sale, rummage sale, eBay, etc.

 

I do estate sales and am shocked at all the non-military family heirlooms that are being sold. Again, to the family, it is a lot of excess that they have to get rid of.

 

Point is, if it is purchased honorably, then we need not feel guilty about it... because the families most certainly don't.

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Some very good points in this thread! Doing re-enactment, I run into this situation quite a bit. Often, a family member will approach me at an event with family items that they do not know what to do with, they often know there is "value" to it and they do not want to see it go to waste.

 

The very first thing I tell them is to make sure no one in the family wants them, I let them know that recovering items can be difficult to impossible once it is gone.

 

If they know that no one in the family wants it, the next thing I do is encourage them to keep everything together as a group. I tell them that a lot of the "value" in the items today are the history attached and that once the name and items are divorced from each other, it will just be another "unknown" on a dealers table. This usually leads to, "Should I get the items to a collector or a museum?". I let them know that either way is a step in the right direction by getting the items into the right circles for potential preservation, but that both museums and collectors can and do part out groupings for funding for their own reasons and neither is sure thing.

 

I really try to take time to educate family members about the history, hobby, and commercial aspects of collecting. If someone asks me to take items, I usually will not turn them down unless I can tell that they are unsure about family members wanting the items, in which case I give them my card and encourage them to think about it, citing the first reason above. I have never tried to talk anyone (other than other collectors) out of their items. If the person is insistent, I will take the items knowing I can get these items into the right circles and I consider myself more a custodian than a collector in those cases.

 

There will always be lowlifes only interested in making $$$. However, the community as a whole is in this hobby BECAUSE they cherish all aspects of what these items are and what they really mean.

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"... a black eye before I even get started here."

 

Not hardly...

 

And, sometimes it's just luck of the draw.

 

In museum work, some of us used to say that our job was to keep alert, so we could reach down into the river of artifacts flowing by and grab whatever we could catch for the sake of tomorrow.

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It is a logical fallacy to believe that most people care about history in general, and material history in particular. Most people are too engrossed in their daily lives/facebook/personal interests to give much more than a passing thought to history, antiques, and things of the sort.

 

Just because the majority of readers of this forum think about it constantly does not mean that others will do the same.

 

Similarly, no one can keep everything forever. For most people, at some point you need to downsize, raise money, or otherwise choose to let go of things that they know others may appreciate more than they do. If this were not true, there would be no auctions, no antique shows, no flea markets.

 

Grandma's porcelain dog statue often has just as much emotional value to a family as does grandpa's old uniform. The importance that we place on one over another is a personal preference; and one that should not be criminalized as the proprietor of that website would have done.

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One thing I have noticed over the years among some in this hobby is that somehow when a family disposes of military items they are being disrespectful to their ancestors history (brothers, sisters, parents, grandparents, etc.). Sure I've encountered people that had absolutely zero interest in history and simply wanted cash for the "junk" but in most instances I have experienced warm, caring and loving families who are divesting themselves of items simply due to circumstances. I will give a few cases to illustrate what I mean...

 

Case #1- Lovely woman who served as a nurse during WWII. She had retained both her uniforms and her husbands uniforms (who was an officer in the Army Air Force) along with photos, souvenirs, etc. She decided to give them to me after seeing one of my military displays. Before taking them I met with both her and her daughter. Her daughter told me she had spoken with her brother and neither of them wanted the uniforms as they had both been in the military and were overwhelmed with their own uniforms, etc. Their mother did create two fantastic scrapbooks covering her and her husband's service and the kids felt that those were enough. I received everything that was left. I should add that it was either me or the local theater troop.

 

Case #2- Lovely woman who had a father in World War II and a grandfather in WWI. There were numerous things from both their times in the service (mostly paper and photographs). She had married into a family and now had two grown stepsons. She told me that they liked history but had numerous things from their biological grandfathers and great grandfathers so these items meant little to them. She had no other close family so I was able to obtain the items from her. I offered her money but she just laughed and said she was going to throw them out and was happy they would be used. She did keep several items of her father and grandfather but as she stated to me...she didn't need fifteen pictures of her father standing around the barracks. She also had no use for hundreds of images of nose art, air bases, etc.

 

Case #3- Gentleman who had inherited the medals and misc. items from a distant uncle. He was an uncle who had been old when he went into the service during World War II (31 to be exact). When he got out he married an older woman. They had no children so in the end this gentleman received the material. It had been sitting in his garage. He knew the items were special enough to keep but they had no interest to him as he barely knew his uncle. I was able to buy the group and add it to my collection.

 

Case #4- Craigslist add for a World War II tent. When I arrived to look at it, I discovered that it was being sold by the son of the veteran who originally owned it. He showed me the tent and then other items including uniforms, etc. I ended up buying the uniforms (U.S. Army Air Force) and the tent. The son kept his dad's dog tags, crusher, sunglasses some photographs, etc. He told me he was very glad that I was taking them as they had been in his basement in garment bags since his dad had died. He stated he didn't want to throw them out but had no idea what to do with them.

 

Finally Case #4- Lovely elderly woman who saw one of my displays and offered me her husbands items (footlocker, uniforms, photographs, etc.). She had no children and the local historical society did not want the material nor did the museum, library or college where he worked, etc. She wanted the stuff out of the house (he had passed several years earlier) and when I inquired why she didn't want to keep anything...she told me that she met her husband in 1948 and this was part of his life that she had absolutely no connection to. On a funny side note, she had a German helmet he had brought back. She was going to throw it out but didn't want her neighbors to see a swastika in her trash. Once again I offered money and was turned down (I have taken her out for lunch on several occasions). One other side note to this is that a few of the institutions that turned her down saw a display I did with her husbands items. NOW they are interested after I have cleaned, organized, cataloged, repaired, and researched everything.

 

I could go on and on but in all of these instances none of the individuals had a disrespect for history nor did they have a disrespect for their family. It was just circumstances that brought us together and I am always happy and honored to give peace of mind to the original owner and to be in a position to prevent these items from simply disappearing to the dustbin of history.

 

Just my two cents...

Steve

 

Remember - keep em rolling!

 

 

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Anyone here ever hunt down the family of a medal recipient or send a Purple Heart back to its rightful home?

 

 

Hmmm... "rightful" is a loaded term.

 

Like the other posters have said...there are a thousand reasons something is available on the open market.

 

Maybe the person who earned the medal was hated by their family and the family wants everything belonging to them gone.

 

Maybe the pain is too great for the family to bear and the medal is a constant reminder of that pain.

 

Maybe the person who earned the medal was killed so long ago that no one even remembers who they were anymore.

 

Just when I think I've seen everything...something new always comes up.

 

Working with hundreds of families for both of my books, to include many Gold Star families, I've seen the entire range of emotions. It is not for anyone here to judge why they do something with what they have.

 

As has been said before, not every person who collects is a saint. The same goes for not every veteran is a saint, not every lawyer is a saint, not every school teacher is a saint...the list goes on and on. And when there's money to be made, it often brings out the worst in people.

We've had a few people on the forum over the years who have gloated about getting something where a lack of ethics was involved and they've either corrected themselves or have been shown the door. I'm sure there are some people who still might be willing to swindle families who are reading this...but they know better than to post it openly as we don't tolerate that.

 

We believe that everyone deserves respect. The families deserve respect. The veterans deserve respect. And often forgotten, collectors who spend their hard-earned cash to preserve history and the memories of those who have sacrificed for our nation, also deserve respect, especially when their actions are above board and ethical. (And notably, many of those on this forum who collect have served...and impressively so...yet they prefer to focus on preserving the memories of those who have been lost to history rather than self-promotion, as happens all too often these days.)

 

Just my two cents...

 

Dave

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Headhunter5, thanks for posting. like others have said people part with items for various reasons. It may be that the heir either didn't have a relationship with the vet (or had a negative one) and to them its just like any other strangers belongings. Or perhaps it's as simple as they live in a small studio apartment in the city and barely have room for their own stuff, let alone the belongings of a deceased relative. Others have no interest in history. Nothing against them but we all have different interests. Some have lost a job or medical issues and need cash quick because at the end of the day paying the mortgage to keep your home and put food on the table is more important than holding onto grandpa's purple heart. Still there are others that believe strongly that everything is just stuff and want to live a minimalist life. Sometimes the veteran himself gets rid of the medals or uniform. Some proudly display their service and sacrifices. Others don't need any reminders of their experiences and would rather forget it and move on with their lives. Their memories are torture enough and don't need to be reminded everytime they see that uniform hanging in the closet when they get dressed in the morning. My own grandfather, though he kept a few small items, threw out or gave away most if it and rarely spoke of the war.

 

As for the ambulance chasers, obituary readers and the ones chasing down vets or their widows at the VA hospital, they are in my opinion just in it for the money. If they cared about the history and wanted to honor the vet they wouldn't take advantage of him or his family. However, I truly believe this represents a very small percentage of the militaria community. Im sure as you spend more time on the forum, youll see this is the case. If you put any group of people together you will find some that are crooks and unethical. As with many things going on in the world today, you just can't let a few bad ones change your perception of everyone else and make them guilty by association.

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Was there a reason this member came out of the blue making claims about 'rightful ownership' of Purple Hearts, downing collectors, and with a link to PHR?

A new member posted a topic that many among the collecting world has asked himself the same question. The discussion has been mature and thought provoking, and we have no need to call a new members inquiry into question as having a hidden agenda.

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To echo what Brig has noted, this is has been a good discussion on an issue many of us have thought about. Up to this point it has been conducted in a civil manner.

 

Any comments that are accusatory or questioning the motives of any of the posters will be removed.

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Good points all around! Dave and Brian, You're probably right that "rightful owner" connotes more than I intended. Perhaps I should have said "original recipient".

 

I think it is special when a Korean War veteran who sold his gear during tough times gets his PH back but I don't think that collectors have an obligation to hunt down the veteran or the family for every named piece they have.

 

Others here have done a good job of articulating times where it is not only OK but honorable to obtain, collect, and display these items.

 

For what it's worth I'm not a militaria dealer, or a hardcore collector. I'm just a busted up Infantryman who loves these tangible connections to the people and stories that helped shape our great nation's history.

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Not to attempt to "call you out" but you have to realize the times we are in as collectors.

We are being called out daily as being dishonorable money scavengers... when 99% of the time this is not the case.

 

I apologize for any insinuation, but you have to know it's very easy to hide behind a new screen name on the internet.

In these days of the internet it's easy to be skeptical..

 

I hope we can continue to tell stories of honorable acquisitions and how we hold them in such high regard in our collections. Often sharing them with MANY more people than would have ever seen them before.

-Brian

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I read Headhunter5's remarks with interest, which gave me pause to think. I have been collecting since July 1945. Over the years my primary contacts have been the Vet himself or members of his family. I have been fortunate to amass a very sizable collection, over 90% of which has come from my immediate area. It is rare that I have ever been asked for payment. When given items, I photograph it, record it, set up a display complete with a data plate, invite the family to visit to see the display, and stay in touch. I am nothing more than a temporary caretaker of their history. In addition, I have written 43 books to date featuring these Vets, and using their items to tell a piece of history. I would like to give two specific examples of experiences that I have had:

 

1. Seven years ago I read of a Paramaine Vet living in a retirement home. I contacted him, as asked if I could interview him. I met with him and his wife (there were no children) He showed me his military effects. We stayed in touch. He came to view my museum, and immediately asked if I would be interested in his items. They are now on display. We have stayed in touch over the years, becoming very close friends. He lost his wife, and is now in the final stages of his life. Since given only six months to live (that was over a year ago), I visit him every Sunday. He is covered in two of my books. We discuss at length his military adventures, which he remembers well. He is a friend, and I'm proud to be his.

 

2. A few months ago, while attending a luncheon, I was seated next to a lady. I had no idea of her background, only that she was a retired Colonel. Out of the blue she asked me if I knew anyone who would be interested in her father's Marine uniform. To make a long story short. it is now on display in the Marine Room of my museum. She has visited to see his setup, and we meet every month

 

I have many such stories to tell that have taken place over the years. I am always astonished when the family is prepared to give up the awards of the Vet. I live in hope that my son will readily accept mine when the time comes.

 

I really take exception to the thrust of the intent that has been put forth. Only twice over the years have I been asked to return items to the family, which I did, fully aware that the son merely wanted to sell--a loss to history.

 

I have learned long ago to have faith in my fellow man, and only until he proves to be an rump do I judge him. Jack

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Jumpin Jack, Thanks for your thoughts and more importantly thanks for preserving these pieces of history for the past 61+ years. Amazing!

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