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I guess I shouldn't be surprised but I am...


John762
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The following is why I like this site, theres so much knowledge here and its freely shared. A number of people have been so kind and accommodating in answering my plethora of what Im sure must be the same tired old questions but there seems to be an honest attempt to educate and outline whats real and whats not. Its a nice change

 

And then there was today

 

I have become somewhat disillusioned; Im just tired of the cheating. I gave up competitive shooting because of the cheating, not cheating for money but cheating just to raise your place on the finish at local club matches. I got weary of the cheating at gun shows, the misrepresenting of weapons and the outright lying and fakery. I got tired of the cheating of knowledge, in particularly those representing themselves as experts and imparting their incorrect information to others just to make themselves feel important.

Ive become especially tired of the cheating just for money

I attended a small gun show today and looked at 2-3 rifles being toted around by attendees. Oddly enough 2 of those were M1917 Winchesters; the first one was reported to be original just like it was made and shipped from the factory. A quick look showed it to be grey parked, funny but I dont recall Winchester turning out grey parked rifles in 1917, a bargain at $750.00, thanks but Ill pass.

Then there was another Winchester M1917, this one was in a case tightly clutched to the chest of the hopeful seller as he had just showed it to a prospective buyer. I politely inquired as to what he had, could I see it, blah blah blah I was informed that I would be allowed to see it only if I would hold it with reverence as it was a 100% original and correct WINCHESTER! Sure, Ill be careful I promise

 

I must admit that I was a bit intrigued as the asking price was $1k and I dont own a 17Winny and if it was a nice as implied I would step up to the plate with a solid offer. (I had already been informed that he had a standing offer from a dealer but he couldnt tell me what it was because after all it wouldnt be fair to the dealer, who as it turned out was the other guy standing there)

When he pulled it from the case and handed it to me my heart just dropped, the all original m1917 Winchester had a lightly varnished stock, a HS stamped barrel and some mismatched parts that had and funny little R stamp on them. Sigh

I politely thanked him and handed the rifle back to him, he asked what I offered, I politely said that I wasnt interested in it. He pushed a bit and I told him that it wouldnt fit my collection and Id just keep looking, (I just dont understand some people) but he demanded to know why? Ok brother you asked As politely as I knew how I showed him the replacement barrel, the arsenal rebuild stamps on the stock, the varnish, the mismatched parts etc. The gentleman wasnt happy, and the color drained out of the face of the prospective buyer who was still standing there.

I watched the seller carry it around and try to use his same BS story on others, my first thought was he just didnt know what he had but after chatting with a few other people at the show that I knew I found out that was his normal M.O.

 

The short story (sorry but I guess its a bit late for that now) is the prospective dealer approached me a few minutes later and thanked me, the seller was a longtime friend and the dealer didnt know about the old military rifles and he was going to buy it because he liked it and his friend assured him how good a deal it was etc etc etc. Sometimes I just dont get it

 

The capper to the day was I got home and had a package waiting for me, I had traded/purchased a knife from a friend in another state, Ive known him for years (he would be considered elderly now his health is failing a bit etc). Hes very knowledgeable about military rifles and Ive learned a tremendous amount from him over the years and without a doubt he had a major impact on my learning about them and their history and developing a love of them. Hes never been too involved with knives but he knew I liked them and we worked out a deal on an M3 Case that he got from a trusted friend a few years ago.

So I opened the box, and its a fake

 

Ill eat the deal, what I have invested in it isnt that much and it means more to me to not hurt his feelings and embarrass him, I know hed want to send me funds to make it right and I know he really cant afford it. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he doesnt know it isnt real, he thought it was a really nice example and was doing me a favor by making the deal.

 

But if someone down the line hadnt cheated to make a few bucks I wouldnt be writing this.

 

Im sorry for the long drawn out rant, but Im just so tired of the cheating

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It happens in every hobby, I don't know anything about collecting military items other then photo's. I due how ever have a vast knowledge in sports cards and being able to tell fakes repos that where aged to look as if they are in mint condition. Its gonna be present at any convention you go to. Its sad and puts a bad taste in the water knowing people are tarnishing the hobby something just to make that extra buck.

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Being around here and meeting a handful of other dealers and collectors (Some are on here, some aren't) through a good friend of mine has taught me that your reputation is worth more than the best uniform/grouping/helmet whatever. I despise dishonesty.

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This week I discovered (with the help of a question from a more knowledgeable Ebayer) that two of the non military knives I inherited from my grandfather and decided to sell rather than collect are factory seconds.

 

Not fun contacting someone on a high bid to cancel, but worse to send something less than expected.

 

Having inherited the collection and finding the commercial seconds, I am ramping up the paranoia on what I have.

 

You handled your situations well. The bad apples are few, but bold. Hope they stay obvious.

 

Thanks for sharing!

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I hate to say it but you better get use to it. I am not a knife or gun collector but even the items I collect which is military survival and medical odd ball parts and components are being faked. Some items are very difficult to tell the difference. They call them reproductions or hole fillers but unless they are marked in some manner that can ID them as such they are really fakes.

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Hoping today's misfortunes are just a bump in the road, and as a result of your honesty, integrity, and perseverance, some sweet deals are going to materialize for you soon! None of us can control anyone else. Just continue doing the right thing, and it'll all work out!

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I'll echo the sentiments that there are crooks anywhere there is something to gain. I too shot competitively, in the form of 3D archery, and there was plenty of cheating going on there - always from the same group of guys. Interesting how they all shot in a group, so they could pad each others' scores. I had a guy try selling me a WWII helmet one time, that he swore his father-in-law brought home from the war. Showed me pics of him, whipped up a story, etc. Helmet was repro. There's guys that get KIA obits from old newspapers, and will engrave Purple Hearts to match them - then sell them for hundreds of $$$s. I could go on and on, but will suffice to say, scumbags are everywhere. However, they are far outnumbered by good guys. There was a point I considered getting out of the hobby because of the crookery, but decided I love it far too much to do so. My motivation is to preserve and tell the stories of these great veterans, and I'm not going to let a few low-lifes keep me from the mission.

 

Hang in there man, you are due a good turn that will restore faith.

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I look at it this way; How boring would these hobbies of ours be if everything was exactly what it is advertised to be? I know we would have very little discuss on forums like this :) I treat it like a game I guess. For me, part of the challenge and fun is sorting out good from bad, and finding the diamond in a dung heap.

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Thanks for the kind comments but just for the record...

Apparently I lost a bunch of punctuation ect when I copied and pasted, I'm not Shakespeare but I write better than what's represented there. LoL

I've been in the hobby for a long time and I've seen it and been subject to it many times in the past but as I get older I have much less tolerance for fools...

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Gentlemen, it's just part of the world we live in now with the "all about me" & "I'm gonna get mine" mentality.

 

Something my father told me was your integrity & reputation are two things nobody can take from you, you have to give them away.

 

Had a situation that fits into this conversation the other day. Had a knife on Ebay for sale & had a buyer make an offer. It was 3 AM & I'm not sure what I did, but meant to accept the offer, but somehow cancelled it. Was in the process of sending him a note & in the meantime, he did the BIN at full asking price. I could have took that & let it be, but wasn't my original intention, so sent him a note explaining & refunded the difference between the original offer& BIN price. Bottom line is, I gotta look at me in the mirror every morning....

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It's a daily occurrence for collectors. In the helmet collecting portion of militaria we have those who are authticators who knowingly authenticated fakes. We had a service which claimed to prove authenticity through science by using X-ray Floresence. The science turned out to be flawed for such an application yet, the promoters continued to authenticate helmets using this application even after they knew it didn't work. I've contemplated giving up collecting multiple times because of this but, the bug just won't go away. :)

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Individuals and gun show sellers are not the only ones whose sale tactics are questionable. A major national auction house is currently trying to sell a sword described as follows: “1862 Style Naval Cutlass with Ames Markings. Dated "1862", actual date of manufacture unknown. 31 5/8" OAL, 26" blade. Original examples of the Ames 1862 Officer Cutlass are very scarce.” Estimated price: $2000 – 3000.

 

Unfortunately it is an obvious high-quality reproduction originally marketed by the infamous House of Swords in the 1980s. Here are pictures of first, a genuine M1861 Officer cutlass, and second, the cutlass being offered at auction:

 

post-160923-0-15879300-1485478469_thumb.jpgpost-160923-0-90920000-1485478498_thumb.jpg

 

There are several easily seen differences between the originals and the repro, including no line at the base of the pommel and along the edges of the hilt; the shallowness of the lines on the basket guard; the narrowness of the fuller; the not-quite-right Ames marking; etc. Probably the most obvious difference is the width of the bands on the grip. The originals had 19 turns of the wire wrap; the HoS (and this example) have 15.

 

It would be nice to think this is an honest error, but the description clearly indicates they at least suspect this cutlass is not right. Note they are careful not to claim it is an original. It is called "an 1862 style cutlass", not an 1862 cutlass, with the disclaimer that "actual date of manufacture unknown". (The actual date is c.1980.) They also note "original examples are...very scarce", but they don't say this is an original example. Caveat Emptor.

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  • 1 month later...

Individuals and gun show sellers are not the only ones whose sale tactics are questionable. A major national auction house is currently trying to sell a sword described as follows: “1862 Style Naval Cutlass with Ames Markings. Dated "1862", actual date of manufacture unknown. 31 5/8" OAL, 26" blade. Original examples of the Ames 1862 Officer Cutlass are very scarce.” Estimated price: $2000 – 3000.

 

Unfortunately it is an obvious high-quality reproduction originally marketed by the infamous House of Swords in the 1980s. Here are pictures of first, a genuine M1861 Officer cutlass, and second, the cutlass being offered at auction:

 

attachicon.gifM1861 Offier Cutlass art 1 comp.jpgattachicon.gifRepro Officer Lot 196 RIA 2 comp.jpg

 

There are several easily seen differences between the originals and the repro, including no line at the base of the pommel and along the edges of the hilt; the shallowness of the lines on the basket guard; the narrowness of the fuller; the not-quite-right Ames marking; etc. Probably the most obvious difference is the width of the bands on the grip. The originals had 19 turns of the wire wrap; the HoS (and this example) have 15.

 

It would be nice to think this is an honest error, but the description clearly indicates they at least suspect this cutlass is not right. Note they are careful not to claim it is an original. It is called "an 1862 style cutlass", not an 1862 cutlass, with the disclaimer that "actual date of manufacture unknown". (The actual date is c.1980.) They also note "original examples are...very scarce", but they don't say this is an original example. Caveat Emptor.

 

I went back to check the auction results for this fake. It didn't reach its pre-sale estimate of $2000-3000, but it did get $1495. This would be a remarkable bargain if this were the genuine article. As it is, it sold for at least ten times what it was worth. Clearly no knowledgeable collectors were sucked in. If they thought it genuine, the sale price would have been much higher and if they thought it was fake, much lower. Only some unfortunate newby would bid this much. Hopefully they don't get soured on the hobby when they find out they;ve been had.

 

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