Development of the Engineer Knife Pre-WW1 to 1940

[dustin]

 

The "ARMY KNIFE" marked knives are a lot less common than the issued small sheepfoot easy opener. It definitely would have been more expensive than the 2 blade easy open design. Maybe this explains why the Engineer Knife would not be in as widespread use as the smaller 2 blade design. Maybe it was passed over by the military in large numbers due to cost. The concept of smaller purchases by the military intrigues me though...and your idea of Boy Scout Knives being the foundation of design I believe is spot on.

 

Ok, for purchases to be executed there has to be a requirement with an established basis of issue detailed in allotments of Tables of Basic Allowances or Tables of Organization and Equipment. Speaking specifically of the engineer knife for the Corps of Engineers what do you think would be the requirement on an annual basis through the 1920's and 1930's? probably fairly minimal considering the size. Each year purchasing would be reviewed before funds would be released, if it was determined that considerable stock was available to meet the annual requirement funds would be withheld until next year, so on and so forth. I'm getting the impression that your correlating the engineer knife with the entire US Army, which you cannot do that. We are specifically talking about a branch of the US Army. Pocket knives were not a standard issue item to all branches of the US Army, think of the pocket knife as a specialty item. They are procured for specific purposes like tool kits, or for issue under special duties.

[bobcat87]

Also it seems to me that if the Engineer Knife design was standardized in 1937, there must have been a need to standardize. After all, 1937 was the time period between the wars and this standardization does not seem to be out of immediate wartime need. Do you think that we could infer from this that the Scout/Engineer was purchased by the Army prior to 1937 and there were problems with uniformity? It sounds to me like the Army was already in the process​ of utilizing the Engineer Knife. Just looking for another clue...

[bobcat87]

My use of the inverted shields is merely for the purpose of dating early knives using physical characteristics and knife patterns produced by various manufacturers. I believe that nailing down the dates of 1922 for the end of the ARMY KNIFE being produced by NYK Co. (and possibly earlier), 1925 for the last inverted "BE PREPARED" shield Official Boy Scout knife by NYK Co., and 1928 for the first provable upright shield "BOY SCOUT" Camillus which gives us collectors a much more specific time frame than the 1930's for the first possible appearance of the Engineer Knife(even though 1937 may be the first printed reference).

 

My reference above to the lack of shield on WW1 easy open knives was just from a cost perspective and does not have any bearing in the dating concept. It is really quite trivial for how I intended the usage but yet lacked the clarity in my description. I should not have mentioned it, so as not to confuse. For this, I apologize.

 

It is my belief that shield orientation is merely a way to quickly recognize knives from the early period and justify the relationship and dating to the Boy Scout knife. You are correct also in that I have used too broad of a brush with the use of the term Army and should be more precise. I am merely a collector who desires to further my knowledge to obtain important examples that are rare or unknown and attribute them correctly.

 

I have always read and been told by other collectors that the scout/engineer knife was not utilized until the 1930's by the military. I just can not believe that a knife made so popular prior to WW1 by the Boy Scouts, that has all of the tools perfectly suited for military use, would not be purchased by them throughout an entire world war and for almost 20 years afterward. It also does not makes sense that when the military purchased everything available across the board from almost all manufacturers in the build-up to WW2 that they would not have done the same in the build-up to WW1 when our military was even smaller and outdated than at the beginning of WW2.

[dustin]

Yeah, see there is one issue your trying to add "Military" with "Practicality" and "Common Sense", oil and vinegar. That's going to trip you up more often than not.

[bobcat87]

Sometimes I mix it all together just to see what kind of mess it makes I guess... What is your opinion on the NYK Co. and Camillus ARMY KNIFE knives? I they lack the US designation.

 

We know also that NYK Co. was a manufacturer of the WW1 easy open knife and that they apparently shut down production of this knife for the Boys Scouts until 1920. Might this give us a clue?

[dustin]

Sometimes I mix it all together just to see what kind of mess it makes I guess... What is your opinion on the NYK Co. and Camillus ARMY KNIFE knives? I they lack the US designation.

 

We know also that NYK Co. was a manufacturer of the WW1 easy open knife and that they apparently shut down production of this knife for the Boys Scouts until 1920. Might this give us a clue?

 

I'm looking at this whole thing in that pocket knives are a "Tool" not a utility thing every GI is running around with. Having a cursory knowledge of Sets and Chests like carpenters, Ferrier, blacksmith, mechanic, lineman, electricians etc. they often include knives and often pocket type knives as a tool orientated towards a specific purpose. To supplement these Kits, Chests, Sets and Specialty Duties pocket knives were procured. These kits were procured as sets from a contractor supplied with what is referred to as Contractor Furnished Equipment, most all the items were from commercial outlets. However, a stock would be maintained for replenishment purposes. In that context any knife available could had been used by the US military. This whole conversation to me has been about the engineer knife and what is its origins. The easy opener is nothing more than a pattern, a common one at that, and has no relevancy to the conversation at hand. The shield orientation as been clearly defined and placed in a time bracket that appears to be consistent, so no argument there.The ARMY KNIFE so far has been a four bladed pattern consistent to the approved type of 1937. As part of Specification 17-170 the Engineer Corps required a shield and for it to be stamped USA. It is probable that the Engineer Corps procured standard manufacture patterns, in the 20's and 30's, but required a stamped shield as part of contract negations. Likely they had no drafted specifications at that time, eventually to maintain a uniformity and quality control they drafted formal specifications in 1937. It is also additionally likely knife manufacturers voluntarily placed the designation ARMY KNIFE on government contracts. Obviously I'm guessing at this point but I cannot get over the odd designation of ARMY KNIFE, its such a commercial type branding, a knock off if you will. Its like saying ARMY TYPE, I'm reminded right now of TV commercials for trucks saying "the body is of military grade aluminum" implying its tough. Even during the era of topic certain manufacturers were sanctioned official manufacturers of Boy Scout Knives, other manufacturers marketed there patterns as Scout Types. These manufacturers couldn't use the official BSA seal but went through the loop hole by branding SCOUT KNIFE on shields. Ultimately there is this line I'm straddling in where I want to believe but there is reservation, just because it says "ARMY" it doesn't make it so.

[bobcat87]

Ditto Dustin. It was manufactured by a WW1 military contractor in the same configuration that was later to be approved. It was manufactured during the WW1 time frame but the label ARMY KNIFE just seems like a generic label and too commercial to be issued on a big contract. It seems like the type of item that would have been sold to the soldiers and carried to war from the cash in their pocket. The quality is A++. It is for all intents and purposes the same knife as the 2nd design 4 blade Official Boy Scout Knife of 1917-1922.

 

It would be nice if some one could post pics of the 4 blade Crown Cutlery knife with the "U.S. ARMY" shield. I do not have one or I would. Or, any other knife that may keep us on the evolution and development of the Engineer Knife between WW1 & WW2. I would love to see a new discovery of an obscure manufacturer...

[bobcat87]

Here is a new and interesting twist to this thread. Check out this photo of a New York Knife Company ARMY KNIFE that is engraved on the bolster with the service member info. Notice the engraving that says "W GAY 309th H-F-A MED DET". I wonder if this knife was issued? From WW1 or post WW1?

[bobcat87]

Upon doing a little further research, I have found that the 309th Heavy Field Artillery(H-F-A) was assigned to the 78th Division in August 1917. The 78th Division, known as the "Lightning Division", was demobilized in June 1919 after service in WW1.

 

Later in June 1921, the 309th Regiment was reconstituted in the Organized Reserves as the 309th Infantry and assigned to the 78th Division( later re-designated the 78th Infantry Regiment).

 

This new info seems to imply that the above shown ARMY KNIFE is engraved with a portion of the 309th Regiment that existed prior to 1919. I believe that this new information demonstrates use of an Engineer type knife during WW1.

 

Until now, the earliest known example of an Engineer/Scout type knife that was possibly issued (that I am aware of) is in Mike Silveys book, "The Complete Book of US Military Pocket Knives" on page 80 by Crown Cutlery. The example he depicted was made prior to 1930.

 

This new ARMY KNIFE example appears to date to pre-1919. If this is true, it goes a long way toward advancing my theory of military usage of Engineer/Scout type knives during WW1. The real question remains...Would the military engrave the knife this way or is it a personal purchase? Any ideas?

[dustin]

Bobcat, very cool knife. MED DET means Medical Detachment. Some hits appear in Google searches for 309th Medical Detachment assisting the 309th Field Artillery.

[bobcat87]

Thanks Dustin. Any thoughts as to whether this item was an issued item? I have heard that many items were purchased in small quantity for individual soldiers during the interwar period when budgets were lean for equipment. Do you think it possible that this was an issued item? It is definitely a curiosity to find one labeled Army Knife. I also know that specific service members, like doctors, required a specialized tools and equipment.

 

This knife came from New York state where the 309th was headquartered. As you know, I am always searching for early "issued" scout/engineer knives...I want to find the first. I am still betting that they were issued during WW1. They were already too popular and "high tech" at the time of the outbreak of WW1 to have been ignored by the military. Now, we also have more supporting evidence showing that this knife was made during WW1. I believe it to date from 1917-1922, which is the same time frame for the 2nd NYK Co. Boy Scout knife(which the Army Knife knife is identical to). I also believe that if any scout knife were to have been issued during WW1, it would have been the company with the reputation for developing the Boy Scout knife, New York Knife Company.

[dustin]

The knife recently acquired is certainly a step in some direction. I have no further substantive information to inject for your hunt, unfortunately. Thanks for thinking out load.