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Development of the Engineer Knife Pre-WW1 to 1940


bobcat87
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This thread is being started to study the development of the Engineer Knife from the pre-WW1 period through 1940. It is my belief that because of the many different features of this knife that a timeline can be established through a study of the various manufacturers and their physical attributes. There are certain facts and characteristics of which we are already certain that can provide a basis for this study. Some of those characteristics are;

 

 

1. Development of the Boy Scout Knife in 1911

2. Existence of shields

3. Orientation of shields(upside down or right side up)

4. type of can opener

5. type of punch

6. type of can opener

7. type of screwdriver/tab lifter

8. type of shackle attachment

9. dates of existence of the various manufacturers

 

I believe that the timeframe for the development of the Engineer Knife for the military is in fact much earlier than the currently accepted time frame of the late 1930's. Hopefully through the posting of examples and a study of their attributes and manufacturers over time we will be able to finally know their history.

 

We must start with what we know. What I propose is that this study begin with the earliest, most likely known platform for the development of this knife, the first Boy Scout Knife in 1911 by New York Knife Company. Here are some pictures...

 

 

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The first picture shows the Boy Scout Knife as developed by New York Knife Co. and manufactured 1911-1916. Noticed the upside down "BE PREPARED" shield, the thin puncture point on the can opener, the pinned attachment of the long shackle, the patent number on the punch, and the stubby screwdriver/tab lifter. From what I have seen thus far, it is possible that this is the first labeled and pinned shield on this pattern of knife.

 

The second picture shows the second design Boy Scout Knife manufactured by New York Knife Co. from 1917-1922. Notice the same upside down shield labeled "BE PREPARED", the same thin puncture point on the can opener, a longer screwdriver/tab lifter which resembles the later accepted WW2 design, and a shorter detachable shackle.

 

Next is the first known example to me of a knife in this pattern labeled "ARMY KNIFE" by New York Knife Co.. This particular pattern of knife was manufactured during the same time frame as the second design Boy Scout Knife by New York Knife Co. from 1917-1922. This of course fits the same time frame as America's entry into WW1 in 1917. From this it can be surmised that this knife was designed at least with the intention of being carried into war by our servicemen. Whether or not this is an issue knife or not, this is the first knife made in the same exact configuration as the second design Official Boy Scout Knife. From what I can tell from Scoutknives.net, they were the exclusive manufacturer of the official Boy Scout Knife until 1923. If anyone has any contrary information please correct me.

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One thing you will notice that the above knife has in common with other early military issued Signal Corps Knives of WW1 is that the shield is pinned on in a way that we would consider upside down today. If anyone has any of the knives, I would love to see some pictures. I believe that it is possible that after the start of WW1 these shields were turned right side up as shown by the majority of these knives that are known to exist today. Many examples of these beautiful knives can be seen pictured in Michael Silvey's book, "The Complete Book of US Military Pocket Knives" pgs. 63-78.

 

Mr. Silvey also believes it possible on Page 80 of his book that Crown Cutlery Company may be the first manufacturer of an issued knife sometime prior to 1930. The knife depicted in his book has a pinned shackle, thin puncture point can opener, stubby screwdriver/tab lifter and a shield labeled "US ARMY". This knife conforms to our previous assumptions that only issued knives were labeled with the "US" designation.

 

This next knife pictured is a recent find manufactured by Camillus with an upside down shield labeled "ARMY KNIFE". This knife has a thicker puncture point on the can opener, a pinned shackle, and a slightly longer screwdriver/tab lifter. This knife very much resembles the above pictured "ARMY KNIFE" by New York Knife Company. I believe that due to the thicker can opener, that it may be possible that this knife was manufactured some time after the New York Knife Co example above. This design would most likely be stronger than the above shown can opener demonstrating an improvement. This is only a theory.

 

I realize that during WW1 there was a thicker tin opener utilized on the issued knives we know about made by various manufacturers for the war effort. I believe the original 1911 Boy Scout knife by New your Knife Company to be an attempt to make a better can opener than those known previously to exist which may not have been an accepted design by the military. The Boy Scout opener may have been rejected due to easier breakage than the accepted WW1 design. I believe that major experimentation with can opener designs occurred after WW1 to perfect the product. I have no proof, just a guess based upon comparison... Maybe someone with knowledge about can opener patents can shed some light. Please correct me where possible as this thread has been established to study this type of knife. I make no assertions only assumptions based upon my limited knowledge.

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The above knife is another example of the same knife that Gary posted in my other thread about the ARMY KNIFE. Maybe he can add some more facts which I lack. Anyone please post pictures that can help to fill in the gaps of any knives you believe to be from this time period.

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Upon a second look at the Camillus "ARMY KNIFE", it appears EXACTLY the same. This is interesting because that would show conformity of design between two different manufacturers of the same knife. The New York Knife Co. example was only made until 1922 and both the NYK Co. and Camillus have upside down shields. Does this mean that the Camillus "ARMY KNIFE" was made during the same time frame of 1917-1922?

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Could the very first military pocket knives have had the labeled shield installed upside down as a direct result of the Boy Scout Knife being made this way prior to WW1 in 1911 by New York Knife Company?

 

If the first Signal Corps knives with labeled shields were in fact the Signal Corps knives with upside down shields, does it not make sense that NYK Co. and Camillus labeled shield "ARMY KNIFE" knives would also be labeled this way during the same time period?

 

If there was no standard in place at the time of manufacture for an "ARMY KNIFE" with a shield to be labeled a specific way, could a camp knife labeled "ARMY KNIFE" actually be Army issue manufactured by Camillus and New York Knife Co.?

 

Way too many questions... Now that I have poured out my thoughts and stirred up a nest of hornets, I will sit back and let you respond with your thoughts and hopefully pictures of some beautiful knives.

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Charlie Flick

Bobcat:

 

With your interest in the subject you might want to track down a copy of the article on the origins of the Boy Scout blades which, as I recall, was authored by Dennis Ellingson and published in Knife World some years ago. It was very informative.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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The stud on the screwdriver / caplifter blade was not a WW2 idea. Note the ad from the June 1935 ad in Boys Life magazine.

 

 

 

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Tom Williams was such a nice man. He repaired several knives for me over the years and boy was he a master of disseminating information. He gave me a copy of the "Principal Items Delivered to Armed Forces During World War II From 1941 to 1946". He sent me a picture of the factory and many other small items(stickers, boxes and key rings). My principal interest at the time was completing my Mil-K collection, so I was not concerned about other things. He often spoke of the S-Cards and told me he could make copies of what I needed. I was such a fool for not realizing what a treasure he was offering. He was a legendary historian and very thoughtful person. He is missed...

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If only all of the S-Cards were still around. My previous comment was in reference to the link Gary sent me above about the thread where Orvet posted about Tom and the S-Cards. It made me think and I posted before realizing I was thinking about the parallel thread too. I don't remember how far Tom told me they went back. If memory serves me correct, I don't think they went back as far as WW1 did they?

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Here are some pictures of a very early Camillus SCOUT KNIFE.

 

If the upside down shields are any indication of age as exhibited by the 2nd pattern Boy Scout knife manufactured by New York Knife Company 1917-1922, the early WW1 period Signal Corps knives with upside down shields, the ARMY KNIFE with an upside down shield whose pattern was only manufactured during the same time frame of the 2nd pattern Boy Scout knife by New York Knife Company...

 

I believe it would be safe to assume that this early Camillus, upside down shield SCOUT KNIFE was manufactured during the same time frame as the abovementioned WW1 era upside down shield knives.

 

The shields become turned right side up during the war by New York Knife Company and Camillus (see page 67 Silvey inverted shield WW1 knife).

 

In Michael Silvey's book, "The Complete Book of United States Military Pocket Knives" photos on page 65,67,71,72,74, and 76 exhibit this inverted shield type of dating the knives by Empire Winstead CT, Camillus Cutlery Co., Ulster Knife Co., and Valley Forge Cutlery Co..

 

I believe that this line of argument proves that the inverted shield New York Knife Company "ARMY KNIFE" and the inverted shield Camillus "ARMY KNIFE" posted by Gary are in fact early WW1 era knives. They are just like all of the other provable inverted shield knives listed above made by the various manufacturers depicted in Silvey's book as WW1 knives and the first and second pattern Boy Scout knives which started the trend in of inverted shields in 1911.

 

It is for all of the above reasons I believe the Engineer Knife was produced for the Army much earlier than WW2. I believe the above information dates these knives to be from the WW1 era and our thoughts should not be confined to the late 30's to 1940 time period for the first examples.

 

 

 

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This is another knife showing the trend of inverted shields had come to an end. These pictures are of a Sword Brand SCOUT KNIFE from the 1928 Camillus Catalog showing that by this time the shields had been turned upright.

 

This change seems to have occurred among all knife companies that were manufacturing Boy Scout and military pocket knives mostly during or very shortly after WW1. The upright shield as we know it on most all knives today suddenly had become the new accepted practice.

 

 

 

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Here are some pictures of the second design, first pattern 4 blade Official Boy Scout Knife by New York Knife Company from 1917-1922. It is identical to the "ARMY KNIFE" produced by the same company.

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I can appreciate your effort here, your making some connections. I will relay to you what had been told to me by knowledgeable individuals in the field is that knife manufacturers were very much in bed together, they were almost family. On that point, you are going to see many similar characteristics. The observations you had made is only going to get you so far since the industry comprises of mimicry. It is of my opinion, and what I think is the next logical step to connect the dots is for you to find government/military literature describing the demand, recommendation or use of utility knives. This system has worked well for me, I developed a nice balance between studying physical examples and running down documentation and if your lucky actual images. However, I cannot help very much as your talking about knives that pre date my interests.

Try contacting World War I Nerd on the forum, he reads a lot of WWI literature and I'll wager he has ran across excerpts pertaining to pocket knives. I personally had found catalogs helpful, both from department stores and manufacturers. Sometimes you get lucky in adds, I've found entries referencing US military in these commercial advertisements hidden away.

Also try making a post or wanted shout out in the WWI forum, not everyone browses all the forums.

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What we have learned so far is this;

 

1. New York Knife Co. developed the fist Official Boy Scout Knife in 1911. This first design was manufactured from 1911-1916. It had an inverted "BE PREPARED" shield and a pinned on shackle.

 

2. In 1917, the US entered WW1. New York Knife Co. manufactured the second design Official Boy Scout Knife from 1917-1922 with an inverted "BE PREPARED" shield and a removable shackle. During this same time frame of 1917-1922, New York Knife Co. manufactured an identical knife to the Official Boy Scout Knife with an inverted shield labeled "ARMY KNIFE".

 

3. We learned that Camillus Cutlery Co. manufactured a knife in the same type of scout pattern with an inverted shield labeled "ARMY KNIFE". It appears that Camillus is following the trend established by New York Knife Co for manufacturing Boy Scout knives and the "ARMY KNIFE". What makes this especially interesting is that both New York Knife Co. and Camillus Cutlery were two major manufacturers of WW1 issued pocket knives.

 

4. We have also learned that in 1928, Camillus Cutlery Co was marking their non-Official Boy Scout Knives with a shield labeled "SCOUT KNIFE" that today we would consider to be right side up. Camillus did not manufacture official knives until 1946.

 

In order to understand the next phase in the labeling of the shields on Engineer/Scout Knives, we must first compare them to the most widely issued military pocket knife of WW1, the sheepfoot easy opener. It was made by many different manufacturers and it too appears to have roots in the Official Boy Scout Knife.

 

The first picture is of the 1st design, 2 blade Boy Scout Knife. It was made by New York Knife Co. from 1911-1916 and has an inverted shield labeled "BE PREPARED"

 

The second picture is of a Camillus Cutlery manufactured sheepfoot easy opener. The military again seems to be following the trend of the Boy Scout Knife. This design was made for the military by many different manufacturers. This knife is a WW1 issue knife. Notice the lack of a shield but the same design as the Boy Scout knife with the exception of a manicure blade instead of a small pen blade.

 

 

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Lets create a an objective point, it always helps to have exact dates as much as possible. The US Army Corps of Engineers Specification 17-170 Knife, Pocket, Engineer, Four Blade, with Clevis was approved in 1937.

The million dollar question here.....was the shield stamped "Army Knife" truly US Government procured? It is certain the US military procured pocket knives but we also have to consider many of these purchases were done at local levels or unit levels so this means they were commercial "off the shelf" models. These types of purchases are well documented, Camps bought locally to supplement their needs. This is true even for WWII.

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I believe that the lack of a shield on the issued easy opener can be explained because the US was looking for a knife to be issued across all branches of service.

 

As far as the 2 blade Boy Scout Knives go, from 1917 to 1920 New York Knife Co. ceased to make a 2 blade Official Boy Scout knife although the 4 blade Offiicial Boy Scout Knife and the "ARMY KNIFE" pattern continued to be manufactured 1917-1922.

 

In 1920, the New York Knife Co. designed a completely new 2 blade easy open Boy Scout Knife. The upside down "BE PREPARED" shield was retained until 1925 on this model only. By 1922, the second design Official Boy Scout style four blade "ARMY KNIFE" had been retired with the removable shackle pattern and the New York Knife Company ceased to use the large inverted "BE PREPARED" banner shield on four blade Official Boy Scout Knives.

 

In 1923, Ulster Knife Co. also became approved to manufacture the Official Boy Scout Knife. At this time in history, both the New York Knife Co and Ulster Knife Co. switched to a new shaped BSA shield on their four blade pattern knives.

 

As stated above, the New York Knife Co. continued to use a large banner type inverted "BE PREPARED" shield until 1925 on their 2 blade knife. I believe that this marks the end of the inverted shield Official Boy Scout Knife era(until some recent remakes) for all Boy Scout knives.

 

It is for all of the above reasons that I believe the era of the four blade "inverted shield" military Scout/Engineer type knives ended by 1922 and possibly even earlier as evidenced by the existence of WW1 Signal Corps knives with upright shields as early as during WW1. The use of inverted shields by New York Knife Co. appears to have completely ended with the 2 blade Boy Scout Knife by 1925. The Camillus Catalog of 1928 shows clearly that they were producing knives with "upright" shields at this time and possible even earlier.

 

If the New York Knife Co. and Camillus Cutlery Co knives were produced prior to 1922, it would seem that they were intended for use by our servicemen. Whether they were issued or not, we do not know. It is also possible that the inverted shield "ARMY KNIFE" knives could have been produced during 1917-1918 exclusively because the only thing I know for certain is what the time period was that the pattern was produced by New York Knife Co.

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Sounds good Dustin. So in 1937, the first approved design is standardized by the Army. I think now we have at least an idea of around what time period these New York Knife Co. and Camillus "ARMY KNIFE" knives were made as it seems the practice of "upside down" shields had ended sometime before or @1922 on four blade Scout/Engineer type knives.

 

The "ARMY KNIFE" marked knives are a lot less common than the issued small sheepfoot easy opener. It definitely would have been more expensive than the 2 blade easy open design. Maybe this explains why the Engineer Knife would not be in as widespread use as the smaller 2 blade design. Maybe it was passed over by the military in large numbers due to cost. The concept of smaller purchases by the military intrigues me though...and your idea of Boy Scout Knives being the foundation of design I believe is spot on.

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I believe that the lack of a shield on the issued easy opener can be explained because the US was looking for a knife to be issued across all branches of service.

 

 

 

I think your placing too much emphasis on "shields", in reality and the entire scope of things only a very small fraction of military folders had shields. One thing to consider is that the branches of service were completely different entities and rarely played in the same sand box. Further yet, departments within a specific service liked to do things their own way. Shields/ no shields mean almost nothing but their existence do help some what. The easy opener you speak of was adopted by the US Navy as their Specification 41J4, additionally 2 bladed easy type openers were procured by the QM for PX purposes. The departments or services requiring a pocket knife ultimately drafted specifications such as the Engineer Corps, Signal Corps, US Navy etc....

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Sounds good Dustin. So in 1937, the first approved design is standardized by the Army. I think now we have at least an idea of around what time period these New York Knife Co. and Camillus "ARMY KNIFE" knives were made as it seems the practice of "upside down" shields had ended sometime before or @1922 on four blade Scout/Engineer type knives.

 

 

No, a design was approved by the Corps of Engineers, US Army. Using the term "Army" as a general reference is way too broad of a brush encompassing all branches or departments. The Signal Corps, US Army had their own approved design. See what I'm driving at here?

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