M1818 N. Starr Cavalry Sword-named

[beerdragon54]

I just bought this sword and to the best of my knowledge the LS inspector dates it to 1821. On the blade is the engraved name J. Bader. What are the odds of getting any information on him? I read all these swords went to the state Militias. If it is possible to get his info, who is the best researching this time period?

 

 

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[sundance]

Tough to beat an almost 200 year old saber...and a real bonus to have it named. No clue though on how to track down Mr. Bader. I can never understand why so many Starrs still have their scabbards.

[shellman825]

Very nice sword

[reschenk]

A truly interesting sword. I really don't know quite what to make of it. It's general shape and scabbard look more like a M1813 than a M1818 which would have had a wide central fuller in addition to the narrow one on top. However the M1812/13 sword blades had a flat surface with no fullers. The M1810s had just the one narrow fuller on the top like this one, but Luther Sage was not inspecting swords that early. Is this possibly a M1813 which was assembled using an old 1810 blade? In addition to the name, this sword also has the additional circle mark. I've seen this on a number of Starr swords, but have no idea what it signifies. Some have suggested it was a subcontractor mark.

[beerdragon54]

A truly interesting sword.  I really don't know quite what to make of it.  It's general shape and scabbard look more like a M1813 than a M1818 which would have had a wide central fuller in addition to the narrow one on top.  However the M1812/13 sword blades had a flat surface with no fullers.  The M1810s had just the one narrow fuller on the top like this one, but Luther Sage was not inspecting swords that early.  Is this possibly a M1813 which was assembled using an old 1810 blade?  In addition to the name, this sword also has the additional circle mark.  I've seen this on a number of Starr swords, but have no idea what it signifies.  Some have suggested it was a subcontractor mark.

Thanks for the info. You are very knowledgeable. Still need to get a good sword book. Probably the oldest sword I will ever own.

 

 

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[reschenk]

Re-looking your pictures, I can't say I really see a M1810-type deep narrow fuller on the top of both sides of the blade. It is only on the photo showing the close-up of the name that I see what looks like a fuller, and I suspect that may just be an artifact of the lighting. If there is no fuller, then this would be a normal M1813, albeit a very special one because of the name.

 

Here incidentally are photos of the three Starr sabers under discussion, the M1810, M1812/13, and the M1818: As you can see, yours looks like the M1813.

 

 

 

[beerdragon54]

Thanks a million!! No fuller, just some drag marks in that pic from going into the scabbard. 1813 it is. Neat!!

 

 

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[reschenk]

Still need to get a good sword book. Probably the oldest sword I will ever own.

 

 

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If you are only getting one book, it should be Harold Peterson's "The American Sword 1775 - 1945". It is the single most comprehensive review of US military swords and is the reference used by virtually all collectors. It is pretty dated, and subsequent research has added a lot to our knowledge, but Peterson remains "the Old Testament" for American sword collectors. Here is the link to the book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=peterson+american+swords

[KurtA]

Can't add any technical/useful info here, but just have to say that is one nice sword!

[SARGE]

I would second reschenk with his suggestion to get the Peterson book first. A basic book that allows you to discuss swords by the Peterson numbering system. When you say it is a "Peterson 75" collectors know that you are talking about a steel hilt CW sword of a very specific style.

[reschenk]

While checking out the URL for Peterson's book on Amazon, I noticed a glaring mistake in the cover photo on the latest paperback version of the book. What was intended was to show the last three versions of the US Navy cutlass, the M1861, M1917, and the M1917/41. Unfortunately the sword chosen to illustrate the M1917/41 is actually a post-WWII Dutch klewang with composite grips and notched cutouts in the basket guard. The USN M1917/41 had black-stained wood grips and smooth cutouts. This was discussed in some detail in last year's thread "M-1917 Boarding Cutlass". Unfortunately Mr. Peterson was unaware of the differences when he wrote the section on this cutlass - this is one of those areas to which I was referring where new research has added to our knowledge. Carter Rila found new documentary and other evidence which he published in his article "A Modern Mystery: Cutlass or Klewang? The Elusive U.S. Navy Cutlass Variant of WWII" in late 1975. I wonder if it would be possible for someone to put out a revised edition of Peterson's classic work incorporating information discovered since the current work was published. It certainly would be a valuable contribution to the literature.

 

[SARGE]

A revision would be a great idea. I have no idea who retains the Peterson book copyright but it could be done. Bender Publishing (my publisher) has re-issued revised editions that retain the original work and simply have a section at the back which updates information. The Littlejohn series of books on Third Reich volunteer units come to mind. Each of the four volume set has a section for errata in the back that corrects information in the previous volumes in the series so that the fourth volume completely updates the previous three without re-inventing, or changing, the original wheel.

[rwporter]

From the website Ancestry.com:

 

A review of the U.S. Census returns for 1820 shows no individual with the first initial and last name, “J. Bader.”

 

A review of the U.S. Census returns for 1830 shows the following two candidates: John Bader of Exeter, Berks County, Pennsylvania; and John Bader of North Regiment, Granville County, North Carolina.

 

A review of the U.S. Census returns for 1840 shows the following three candidates: John Bader of Saint Tammany Parish, Louisiana; John Bader of Lower Saucon, Northampton County, Pennsylvania; and John V. Bader of Union, Indiana.

 

John Bader of North Regiment, Granville County, North Carolina, looks like a good candidate to start with.

 

It is interesting to note that Nat Turner’s slave rebellion took place in 1831 in Southampton County, Virginia; an event which resulted in the calling-out of militias from both Virginia and North Carolina. Granville County, North Carolina, was about 60 miles away from the site of the rebellion.

 

 

[beerdragon54]

From the website Ancestry.com:

 

A review of the U.S. Census returns for 1820 shows no individual with the first initial and last name, “J. Bader.” 

 

A review of the U.S. Census returns for 1830 shows the following two candidates:  John Bader of Exeter, Berks County, Pennsylvania; and John Bader of North Regiment, Granville County, North Carolina.

 

A review of the U.S. Census returns for 1840 shows the following three candidates:  John Bader of Saint Tammany Parish, Louisiana; John Bader of Lower Saucon, Northampton County, Pennsylvania; and John V. Bader of Union, Indiana.

 

John Bader of North Regiment, Granville County, North Carolina, looks like a good candidate to start with.

 

It is interesting to note that Nat Turner’s slave rebellion took place in 1831 in Southampton County, Virginia; an event which resulted in the calling-out of militias from both Virginia and North Carolina.  Granville County, North Carolina, was about 60 miles away from the site of the rebellion.

 

 

Thanks for the info!! I bought the sword out of North Carolina so that does sound like a great lead.

 

 

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