Restrike WW1 Collar Disks

[cwnorma]

Many years ago, Naugatuck Novelty Company, a sutler for CW re-enacting, whose business address is; Box 271 Newton Road, Northfield, CT. 06778, purchased the remaining WW1 era dies from what was left of the Stokes Kirk company. For many years after, they re-struck WW1 era collar disks using these dies.

 

I don't know if they still make re-strikes of WW1 disks, but most of the re-strikes that you see on the market today are theirs.

 

Since they used original dies, the front of the disk is identical to those worn during the war. Fortunately for collectors, they used very distinctive back hardware for their re-strikes, making it possible to tell the "old old" from the "new old"

 

 

As you can see, there is a small hump around the shank, and the nut has a distinctive dimple or relieved area on one side. Occasionally, you will see a WW1 era nut mated with one of these disks, but the best "tell" remains the small raised "hump" around the shank.

 

Chris

[cthomas]

Many years ago, Naugatuck Novelty Company, a sutler for CW re-enacting, whose business address is; Box 271 Newton Road, Northfield, CT. 06778, purchased the remaining WW1 era dies from what was left of the Stokes Kirk company. For many years after, they re-struck WW1 era collar disks using these dies.

 

I don't know if they still make re-strikes of WW1 disks, but most of the re-strikes that you see on the market today are theirs.

 

Since they used original dies, the front of the disk is identical to those worn during the war. Fortunately for collectors, they used very distinctive back hardware for their re-strikes, making it possible to tell the "old old" from the "new old"

 

 

As you can see, there is a small hump around the shank, and the nut has a distinctive dimple or relieved area on one side. Occasionally, you will see a WW1 era nut mated with one of these disks, but the best "tell" remains the small raised "hump" around the shank.

 

Chris

 

 

Very interesting Chris. Thanks for sharing this very important piece of info. I'd say also post it in the WWI collar Disk thread I started. It would be a great opportunity for any one checking out that collar insignia thread to refer to this juicy little tidbit on repro insignia. Might also mention an ebay seller you guys who collect WWI insignia are familiar with...alpinemilitary (or something like that). This disk reminds me a lot of the rare disks he had for sale. A classic example of 'too good to be true'

[cwnorma]

Might also mention an ebay seller you guys who collect WWI insignia are familiar with...alpinemilitary (or something like that). This disk reminds me a lot of the rare disks he had for sale. A classic example of 'too good to be true'

 

Chuck,

 

This picture originally came from ebay, but it was such a good illustration of the back of these Naugatuck disks, I decided to use it.

 

Chris

[doyler]

I have this set.They came together.Found them in a jewelry box at a fleamarket when I was a kid.Never gave them a thought il seeing the post on some a while back.I dug them out.Both nuts on the back appear to be steel and match in size,shape,design and the concentric rings are only on one side of the spinner nut.What do you think??

 

Are they repos

 

Did some of these get made with the backs from the gilt ones after the war?

 

Thanks for looking

 

RON

 

 

[cwnorma]

I have this set.They came together.Found them in a jewelry box at a fleamarket when I was a kid.Never gave them a thought il seeing the post on some a while back.I dug them out.Both nuts on the back appear to be steel and match in size,shape,design and the concentric rings are only on one side of the spinner nut.What do you think??

 

Are they repos

 

Did some of these get made with the backs from the gilt ones after the war?

 

Thanks for looking

 

RON

 

Ron,

 

I believe yours are good. If you look closely, note the round area around the shank on yours is more like a small disk than a raised mound. Small point, but clearly it makes a difference.

 

Here is a gilt version of the Naugatuck Novelty Company disk:

 

 

I don't know why the hardware on yours is gilt.

 

Chris

 

* Photograph is from the www.

[doyler]

Thanks Chris.I was thinking the same on the raised area.Was hard to tell.Just wanted an expert opinion as I have a lot of discs but havent studied them very well.Thanks again,

RON

[teufelhunde.ret]

Great info Chris, Thx for sharing this with us. s/f Darrell

[pbuchh7715]

Greetings,

 

It also appears that the novelty company disks are cast.

 

Pete

[cwnorma]

Greetings,

 

It also appears that the novelty company disks are cast.

 

Pete

 

Pete,

 

That must be yet another type of reproduction as all the ones from the Naugatuck Novelty Co. I have seen are sharply die struck. The conclusion I draw is that this type of screw post hardware must still be available from some jewelry supply company.

 

It would not surprise me at all to see this type of hardware on any reproduction WW1 disk.

 

Chris

[jgawne]

I had atually bought one or two of their reproductions in ages past as hole fillers- but As I recall they all had a s mall circular mark on the back of the disk- as if a dimple from having a casting cut off.

 

Now I will have to go look again. But I did not know the had bought original dies. That makes sense.

 

The reproductions made by schipperfabrik for reenactors are easy to tell as up close they look much cruder and cast. But then no need to ruin or lose originals when running around int he mud.

[pbuchh7715]

Chris,

 

This really doesn't relate, BUT....do you remember about eight - ten years ago when a jewelry collector bought out a HUGE stash of WWI discs and (mainly) US Officer's insignia? This was in San Antonio and the home of the jeweler that manufactured the insignia. Time travel stuff and I remember pursuing the lot.....unfortunately I believe the ticket price was $40K. Thousands of pieces literally but out of the realm of a younger man who worked for a non-profit

 

I was fortunate to be able to pick up a little at the time and it (of course) has gone the way of the dodo. Do you know the name of the manufacturer? I think it was Frank Bros. but I've slept since then and lost the computer with those records in a divorce (HA! It was virus riddled anyways). The seller(I believe) is still on eBay and sells a lot of Western silver crap.

 

Again, not related but the thread opened up the card file in my brain.

 

 

Best,

 

Pete

[cwnorma]

Pete,

 

You are correct, the stash is thought to have been from Frank Brothers, a long-time tailor in downtown San Antonio. They were in business during both World Wars, but finally went out of business in the 1960s with the death of the last remaining brother, Sol Frank.

 

The stash originally hit the market at "Bussey's Flea Market" on Highway 35, north of San Antonio. The stuff was on sale several weekends in a row, with very few takers.

 

The person who had it all had purchased an old storage unit, at a storage unit auction, and was originally trying to sell the stuff by the pound for the metal content.

 

At some point, someone approached the owner (not a collector) and told him that this stuff he had was worth money, and he was going to lose his shirt selling it by the pound.

 

So the owner approached another guy named Art Cooper. Art dealt antiques at the same flea market, and was known as a stand-up guy. Art wasn't a militaria guy, but having been around collectibles he recognized that the stuff definitely had value.

 

After Art got a hold of it all, he set up a web site, and also sold lots of the stuff on ebay. Fortunately, I was able to buy a few of those lots when they were still available. I have a friend who bought a few more. Of course that was long before I moved to Texas.

 

Unfortunately, what I missed was the 40 or so New Old Stock BBB and Robbins WW1 pilot wings. I am told that they were sold for the princely sum of 250 a piece.

 

I managed to get one of them last year, and I know where a few more are here locally. I may end up with one or two more of them. But I will have to pry them out of collections...

 

Unfortunately, Art Cooper died a few years back so wasn't able to talk to him about the find. I only wish that someone had the forethought to take photographs of all this stuff when it was found. It would have made an amazing article for an ASMIC publication or even a book.

 

Anyway, long answer to a short question, but yes, there really was a huge cache (literally hundreds of pounds) of WW1-1930s insignia, including 40 or so sterling, mint, WW1 wing badges that showed up at a side-of-the-highway flea market in San Antonio around 1997.

 

Chris

[trenchbuff]

Chris,

 

Do you know if there were EM collar disks in the Frank Bros. stash? If you have any examples to post photos of could you put a few on the forum?

 

Mark

[cwnorma]

Mark,

 

There were boxes of them.

 

Mostly however, they were standard WW1 era enlisted disks. Various styles, screw backs. I don't recall if there were any numbered ones. I see them frequently on ebay, and at shows. I don't think Frank Bros manufactured any of this stuff, but bought it from wholesalers, and only kept stock to outfit the uniforms they tailored.

 

I didn't have the presence of mind to purchase any of the enlisted disks back in the day, and have only bought a few of them (none are particularly out of the ordinary) but chances are, if you come across a dealer, and he has a riker mount full of real, mint WW1 disks, chances are they came out of the Frank Bros cache.

 

The one I see most commonly is for MAHS or "Main Avenue High School." A San Antonio High School (on Main Avenue--natch) that had an ROTC program.

 

Chris

[trenchbuff]

Thanks Chris!

[pacressman]

Many years ago, Naugatuck Novelty Company, a sutler for CW re-enacting, whose business address is; Box 271 Newton Road, Northfield, CT. 06778, purchased the remaining WW1 era dies from what was left of the Stokes Kirk company. For many years after, they re-struck WW1 era collar disks using these dies.

 

I don't know if they still make re-strikes of WW1 disks, but most of the re-strikes that you see on the market today are theirs.

 

Since they used original dies, the front of the disk is identical to those worn during the war. Fortunately for collectors, they used very distinctive back hardware for their re-strikes, making it possible to tell the "old old" from the "new old"

 

 

As you can see, there is a small hump around the shank, and the nut has a distinctive dimple or relieved area on one side. Occasionally, you will see a WW1 era nut mated with one of these disks, but the best "tell" remains the small raised "hump" around the shank.

 

Chris

I found a guy on Ebay that makes them as we speak. Brand new. I bought a few to see the quality and any distinct features. I gave him royal hell for making new ones.

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

A lot of us that have collected WW1 for eons have known about this. There are also several dealers out there that are advertising these "rare" disks as originals. I can't say if they are knowingly doing this or not, and I won't name names. Either way, as Chris states, if it has a hump on the back leave it alone. The strikes were also made out of some odd metal combination. The guy on e-bay advertises them as repops. Keep in mind that there are also a number of good USMC fake disks out there, some quite good. If you are just starting out in this area, I highly recommend Doc Sipio's book on collar disks.

 

John

[suwanneetrader]

Is the conclusion that: if the hump has a rounded tapering top it is a restrike, but if the hump has 90 degree sharp edge top (like Ron's) then the disc is most likely preiod manufacture Is there anything else to look for, especially with the USMC ones , both screwback and pinback? I have a few and Hope they are OK. Thanks Richard

[suwanneetrader]

Is the conclusion that: if the hump has a rounded tapering top it is a restrike, but if the hump has 90 degree sharp edge top (like Ron's) then the disc is most likely preiod manufacture Is there anything else to look for, especially with the USMC ones , both screwback and pinback? I have a few and Hope they are OK. Thanks Richard

I thought I'd show this one, it has no rounded mound, but a square base to attach the threaded post. The little points on the back have bee removed and the high front of the N America continent shows old abrasions, like it was dropped on concrete? (could it have been on a helmet) ??? Do you think it is a real period original? Thanks Richard

 

 

[suwanneetrader]

The front of insignia:

 

[Lee Ragan]

The one I see most commonly is for MAHS or "Main Avenue High School." A San Antonio High School (on Main Avenue--natch) that had an ROTC program.

 

Chris

 

I have one of the MAHS brass and it has a open catch pin back fastener.

[suwanneetrader]

I thought I'd show this one, it has no rounded mound, but a square base to attach the threaded post. The little points on the back have bee removed and the high front of the N America continent shows old abrasions, like it was dropped on concrete? (could it have been on a helmet) ??? Do you think it is a real period original? Thanks Richard

 

 

 

I never got anyone to say if mine is original so thought I'd bump to the top Richard

[suwanneetrader]

The front of insignia:

This is the front.. RLM

[Too Much WW1 Militaria]

Richard,

 

Yours is good....... That is one of the legit ways that the screwpost was attached to the disc during the time period that they were in use. I'd recommend to anyone who is going to be involved with discs to get a set of the ones that were made from the old Stokes Kirk dies that were bought by Naughtak trading. You can do a ping test, and the repops give off a totally different sound than legit discs. The metal just feels different as well.

 

John

[151mg]

:think: YA know, I have a few rare'r disks, 151st (MG) and an 328th G (Alvin York) ... but none of these hump-back ones.... may sound weird, but kinda makes me want to get at least one for the collection....

 

Yeah, I am a bit off center